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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


Islam doesn't allow plenty of what some practice and that ain't lying, it's the truth. You must accept that Christians, Jews and Muslims go against their own religion, we see it everyday. It was enough of a growing problem in the UK, that they made a law against it, so far no convictions but in France 100 convictions and two by professional 'cutters.'
4/21/2017, 5:16 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


It was enough of a growing problem in the UK, that they made a law against it, so far no convictions

Only one person charged in the UK and slightly embarasssingly that person (a doctor) was actually attempting a repair of an infibulated patient who had recently given birth.

Infibulation is the most severe form of FGM in which basically all the external genitalia are cut away and the wound sewn shut leaving only a very small opening for urine and menstrual flow - you can imagine that when you push a baby out of a hole the size of your finger tip the result is a bloody mess
4/21/2017, 5:23 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


Since Rigby likes wiki, he should check out the info on FGM in England and Wales, including the women who have had it done and are activists, women who aren't lying. There is hardly I time when living or visiting this doesn't make the news, because there are thousands and thousands of women who have experienced FGM. It also happens in the US and in 1997 a law was made that prohibited FGM for those under 18. A study was initiated under Obama and the statistics are shocking for the US and saying it's a lie, is doing these women no service!
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CAIRO, Egypt — It was supposed to be a routine “operation.” The parents of 13-year-old Soheir al-Batea, from a village in Egypt’s Nile Delta, took her to be circumcised at the local clinic that had been recommended by friends. They had done the same with her older sister a year before. A doctor typically cuts off the whole clitoris or a part of it, sometimes in extreme cases removing the labia as well, in a procedure that is now illegal but still deemed necessary by many Egyptians to preserve the purity of the child and control sexual desire.
Dr. Raslan Fadl, a well-respected imam and employee of the nearby government hospital, performed the illegal procedure as he had done on dozens of other girls. He typically treated 10 women a day, locals said afterward.
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Islam doesn't allow plenty of what some practice and that ain't lying, it's the truth. You must accept that Christians, Jews and Muslims go against their own religion, we see it everyday. It was enough of a growing problem in the UK, that they made a law against it, so far no convictions but in France 100 convictions and two by professional 'cutters.'



Its true that there were traditions of mutilation BEFORE Mohammad, but the point is that it has nothing at all to do with Islam.

I have no idea who is doing what in England or France, but the odds are most likely it is the same blood libel as claiming Jews make matzo out of kidnapped babies.
Odds are it is just racist lies, designed to inflame violence.

I don't believe any medical practitioner, nurse or doctor, would ever remove any sexual items unless it was due to some medical need, such as hermaphrodism, cancer, cysts, etc.

I see no reason at all to believe any of these claims that obviously could only be harmful to repeat.
And as far as France goes, they have a long tradition of fascism and racism, such as trying to outlaw the head scarf.

Last edited by Rigby5, 4/21/2017, 7:01 pm
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


Thinking it is about religion is a mistake in the first place, it is about controlling sexual activity by women. Men here do it by verbal and physical abuse. Churches do it, even high school boys do it, "bad reputations" still exist if you are a female.
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Since Rigby likes wiki, he should check out the info on FGM in England and Wales, including the women who have had it done and are activists, women who aren't lying. There is hardly I time when living or visiting this doesn't make the news, because there are thousands and thousands of women who have experienced FGM. It also happens in the US and in 1997 a law was made that prohibited FGM for those under 18. A study was initiated under Obama and the statistics are shocking for the US and saying it's a lie, is doing these women no service!




Your still not listening.
In Islam, there is a procedure called female circumcision, but the point is that it is NOT female genital mutilation. No harm is done to the clitoris, and those claiming it is removed are simply lying.
A slit in the prepuce is NOT mutilation.
Prosecuting those who do this is a racist hate crime.
Spreading the false rumor that mutilation is practiced in the Mideast is a racist hate crime.
4/21/2017, 7:06 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

mais oui wrote:

CAIRO, Egypt — It was supposed to be a routine “operation.” The parents of 13-year-old Soheir al-Batea, from a village in Egypt’s Nile Delta, took her to be circumcised at the local clinic that had been recommended by friends. They had done the same with her older sister a year before. A doctor typically cuts off the whole clitoris or a part of it, sometimes in extreme cases removing the labia as well, in a procedure that is now illegal but still deemed necessary by many Egyptians to preserve the purity of the child and control sexual desire.
Dr. Raslan Fadl, a well-respected imam and employee of the nearby government hospital, performed the illegal procedure as he had done on dozens of other girls. He typically treated 10 women a day, locals said afterward.
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The "Daily Beast" is a scandal rag, and absurd to read or quote.
4/21/2017, 7:09 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Thinking it is about religion is a mistake in the first place, it is about controlling sexual activity by women. Men here do it by verbal and physical abuse. Churches do it, even high school boys do it, "bad reputations" still exist if you are a female.



Not its not.
That is the point, that is the deliberate lie.
The whole point of Islam was that Mohammad married an older widow who he loved and respected, so tried to make reforms to Judaism in order to improve the role of women.
For example, he finally made it so that women were considered to have a soul, rights, could divorce, inherit, etc.
You are referring to what preceded Islam, not Islam.

Read Gloria Steinem on how Islam was originally a woman's rights reformation.
4/21/2017, 7:19 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Are you not reading, I said it is not how Islam is practiced faithfully, it is a made up deal by men, like most control over women was and is. This is one thing you will not or never be an expert on, unless you are a female and in particular, one who has lived it.
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Are you not reading, I said it is not how Islam is practiced faithfully, it is a made up deal by men, like most control over women was and is. This is one thing you will not or never be an expert on, unless you are a female and in particular, one who has lived it.



No, this thread is about a religious female doctor being threatened with 50 year sentence over lies.
The odds she was guilty of actual female genital mutilation is EXTREMELY low.
It is almost for certain this is case of extreme racism, bigotry, and an attempted hate crime against this innocent doctor.
4/21/2017, 7:50 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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The study area had a female circumcision prevalence of nearly 99 percent. Of these, 80 percent were Pharaonic circumcisions - the oldest historically and the most severe form which the practice takes in the Sudan. In Pharaonic circumcisions, as performed by traditional midwives, the entire clitoris is removed from the base, the labia minora are grasped with the hand and cut off, the inside edges of the labia majora are excised, and then the two sides of the wound are brought together and held together by various substances (egg and cigarette papers in the Eastern Sudan; thorns used as skewers in the Northern Sudan) until they close and heal, forming a smooth area of epidermis over the outside with a midline scar. The girl's legs are bound together tightly at the ankles, knees, and thighs to prevent her from moving, so that the healing edges of the wound will not be disturbed; the aim is to make the opening into the vagina as small and tight as possible.

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Sudan is 97% Muslim
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 Current estimates (from surveys of women older than 15 years old) indicate that around 90% of female genital mutilation cases include either
Types I (mainly clitoridectomy),
II (excision) or
IV (“nicking” without flesh removed),

about 10% (over 8 million women) are Type III (infibulation). Infibulation, which is the most severe form of FGM, is mostly practiced in the north-eastern region of Africa: Djibouti(90% muslim), Eritrea (48% muslim), Ethiopia (34% muslim), Somalia(99% muslim), and Sudan(97% muslim).

In West-Africa (Guinea(85% muslim) Mali (98 muslim), Burkina Faso (60% muslim), etc.), the tendency is to remove flesh (clitoridectomy and/or excision) without sewing the labia minora and/or majora together.

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The topic is about how it being done in the West is different, and how it is okay, for vanity.

The fact that those places that you mention did it before they became "Muslim" suggests it is less than honest to connect these ancient heathen practices to Islam.

Is it not much like suggesting Christianity can be judged by snake handling and the Mormon's obsession with underwear ?
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quote:

The topic is about how it being done in the West is different, and how it is okay, for vanity.



if a woman wants to have it done - for whatever reason I see no problem - its her body but when you start butchering children - for non medical reasons - that is different.


The fact that those places that you mention did it before they became "Muslim" suggests it is less than honest to connect these ancient heathen practices to Islam

Of course its a preIslamic custom but Islam has adopted it (in some countries not all) - just as America adopted the jewish custom of circumcising infant boys, there is no religious imperative and there wasnt a cultural one - but for a long time almost all boys were cut for no reason other than fashion

(although doctors did like the income stream)
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So say it clearly.
Do you think all religious circumcision is illegal, or not ?


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quote:

mais oui wrote:

The study area had a female circumcision prevalence of nearly 99 percent. Of these, 80 percent were Pharaonic circumcisions - the oldest historically and the most severe form which the practice takes in the Sudan. In Pharaonic circumcisions, as performed by traditional midwives, the entire clitoris is removed from the base, the labia minora are grasped with the hand and cut off, the inside edges of the labia majora are excised, and then the two sides of the wound are brought together and held together by various substances (egg and cigarette papers in the Eastern Sudan; thorns used as skewers in the Northern Sudan) until they close and heal, forming a smooth area of epidermis over the outside with a midline scar. The girl's legs are bound together tightly at the ankles, knees, and thighs to prevent her from moving, so that the healing edges of the wound will not be disturbed; the aim is to make the opening into the vagina as small and tight as possible.

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Sudan is 97% Muslim



African traditions predate Mohammad, and have NOTHING at all to do with Islam.
Anyone saying they do, not only is unfamiliar with Islam, but is clearly being irresponsible and attempting to promote the murder or more innocent Muslims.

Something is not called "Pharaonic" if it is modern or Islamic.

Many tribes in Sudan, like the ashraf, claim descent from Muhammad. It is totally untrue. But claiming to be Muslim gives them greater authority. That does NOT mean they actually ARE Muslim or even know much of anything at all about Islam.
4/21/2017, 10:19 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

mais oui wrote:

 Current estimates (from surveys of women older than 15 years old) indicate that around 90% of female genital mutilation cases include either
Types I (mainly clitoridectomy),
II (excision) or
IV (“nicking” without flesh removed),

about 10% (over 8 million women) are Type III (infibulation). Infibulation, which is the most severe form of FGM, is mostly practiced in the north-eastern region of Africa: Djibouti(90% muslim), Eritrea (48% muslim), Ethiopia (34% muslim), Somalia(99% muslim), and Sudan(97% muslim).

In West-Africa (Guinea(85% muslim) Mali (98 muslim), Burkina Faso (60% muslim), etc.), the tendency is to remove flesh (clitoridectomy and/or excision) without sewing the labia minora and/or majora together.

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Total lies and propaganda.
First of all, anyone mentioning African customs when discussing Islam, is just lying.
Second is that this case is about a woman of Indian descent, living in Kentucky.
It has absolutely nothing at all to do with Africa, and anyone using Africa as evidence has to be trying to lie.

Can't you even read?
Look at the wording, "90% of female genital mutilation cases include either
Types I (mainly clitoridectomy),
II (excision) or
IV (“nicking” without flesh removed),..."
The key word is "OR".
So then it is possible that [sign in to see URL]% of those included in the quoted "90%" are just a "nicked" prepuce.

Anyone with any intelligence would instantly realize that infibulation has to be far rares than claimed. Not only would it prevent pregnancy, but also prevent delivery, so any society that practiced it would die out in a single generation.


Last edited by Rigby5, 4/21/2017, 10:32 pm
4/21/2017, 10:28 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


Again, for those who have failed to keep up with the facts:

{...
Amirul Mumineen Molana Ali ibn Abi Talib AS clearly says that if the khafz is done then it may be done only after the girl reaches the age of seven. Molana Ali AS also says that this procedure is where part of the ‘clitoral hood’, (prepuce), may be removed or slit, so that women would have more pleasure when they are with their husbands (as cited in the Daaim ul-Islam of Syedna al-Qadi al-Nu’man, Part 1 - pg 124).
...}

(khatna-cdh).html][sign in to see URL](khatna-cdh).html
4/21/2017, 10:42 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

Do you think all religious circumcision is illegal, or not ?




well I thought I had!
yes I think all non medically necessary mutilations of minors, circumcisions, FGMs, and even ear piercings should be illegal - they arent not in the US and not in the UK but they should be.

Here we have the frankly outrageous situation where it is illegal for any one - even a veterinary surgeon - to remove the tail of a dog for cosmetic reason but cutting the end off an infants penis for religious reasons is perfectly legal - even if the person doing it isnt a doctor!
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


Here is more evidence the prosecutions are racist witch hunts intended to inflame violence.

][sign in to see URL]


{...
Top gynaecologist attacks ‘political’ female genital mutilation prosecution:
Case could deter medics from caring for affected patients, doctor warns

DPP said last week that she was to prosecute doctor for carrying out FGM ...
But gynaecologist Katrina Erskine says the doctor did not carry it out ...
Prosecution could deter medics from repairing FGM damage, she says ...

By Sophie Borland for the Daily Mail and Claire Ellicott for the Daily Mail
PUBLISHED: 18:31 EDT, 25 March 2014 | UPDATED: 04:12 EDT, 26 March 2014

A top gynaecologist has strongly criticised the decision to prosecute a doctor for carrying out female genital mutilation.
Dr Katrina Erskine warned that the landmark case announced last week – the first of its kind in the UK – put politics before women’s welfare and risked deterring medical staff from caring for affected women.
On Friday, the Director of Public Prosecutions Alison Saunders announced that there was enough evidence to charge Dr Dhanuson Dharmasena with allegedly carrying out the practice at the Whittington Hospital, North London.
The procedure, known as FGM, is mostly practised on young girls as a form of circumcision in parts of Africa and the Middle East, using barbaric and primitive methods.
Although it is illegal in this country, there have been reports of British girls being taken abroad by their parents to be mutilated.
This particular case is unusual as Dr Dharmasena is alleged to have carried out FGM on a woman after she had given birth. The patient had already undergone the procedure when she was much younger.
But Dr Erskine, a consultant gynaecologist and head of obstetrics at Homerton Hospital in East London, said the doctor had not actually performed FGM because the procedure had already taken place.
She added that stitching done after the delivery – including to stop any bleeding – should not be seen as FGM. She also accused Mrs Saunders of putting politics first and said other gynaecologists were outraged by the decision.
...}


Read more: [sign in to see URL]#ixzz4evn40QE2
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4/21/2017, 11:47 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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I don't know what your point is, repair of FGM or stitching after delivery is a normal procedure with the consent of the female and I agree with the decision. What do you say to the large number of women especially the activists all over the world that claim it and can prove it by examination, the Bill Cosby road?
4/22/2017, 1:16 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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quote:

katie5445 wrote:

I don't know what your point is, repair of FGM or stitching after delivery is a normal procedure with the consent of the female and I agree with the decision. What do you say to the large number of women especially the activists all over the world that claim it and can prove it by examination, the Bill Cosby road?



MY POINT?
My opinion has NOTHING to do with anything.
The POINT is that just as they are trying to thrown Dr Dhanuson Dharmasena in prison, they are also trying to throw Dr Jumana Nagarwala into prison.
There is no evidence against either of them.
Hate and religious bigotry is obviously the motivation, because the charges are ridiculous and hugely exaggerated beyond all rational bounds.
The ONLY similarity and obvious reason for this malicious abuse of authority is that they think both these doctors are Muslim.

Are you saying you agree with the racist decision to prosecute?

Last edited by Rigby5, 4/22/2017, 3:37 am
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I already said I agree with the courts decision but to dismiss the thousands of women that this happens to because they are Muslim is out of order, they may be Muslim but men have and do use Islam to enable them to do what they do, which is not unusual,where in the Koran does it say a woman can't drive or they have to wear burkas or cannot participate in government or they are to be stoned, men have decided that and it does happen, to not recognize it makes you a misogynist as there is to much information and to many women and to many women groups around the entire world that say otherwise.
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quote:

katie5445 wrote:

I already said I agree with the courts decision but to dismiss the thousands of women that this happens to because they are Muslim is out of order, they may be Muslim but men have and do use Islam to enable them to do what they do, which is not unusual,where in the Koran does it say a woman can't drive or they have to wear burkas or cannot participate in government or they are to be stoned, men have decided that and it does happen, to not recognize it makes you a misogynist as there is to much information and to many women and to many women groups around the entire world that say otherwise.



That is insane, to agree with what is obviously the malicious prosecution of 2 totally innocent doctors, when there is no evidence of any wrong doing.

It's only Saudi Arabia that bans women's driving. But even there, the ban is not complete. Women are banned from driving in urban areas, but can be seen driving cars and pick-up trucks in rural regions all the time.
The ban is a societal one -- even the Saudi king has said there is no law against it and says women will drive when society says they can drive. Saudi society fears that allowing women to drive will either make women more vulnerable to attack (particularly sexual attack) or give them more opportunity to prey on men sexually. There's a strong theme in Saudi society that women are the font of unbridled lust and must be contained for the sake of society. There is no law prohibiting women from driving. But they are refused driver's licenses. There is nothing in the Quran or hadith that seems to forbid it, but there are (non-binding) fatwas from some religious authorities that say it's forbidden. Everyone is waiting for the King to make a formal decision. He approves of women's driving -- he has several daughters -- but he says he can't until "society" is ready for it. It's legal, but it's also illegal. It's permitted, but it's forbidden.

As for wearing a head scarf, it is in the Bible, and Christians and Jews are also supposed to cover their head, both men and women. Muslim men wear turbans. Jews wear turbans or the minimal yarmulke. It is only Christians who got it wrong, except for nuns.

With women in government, you have it backwards. It is Judaism and Christianity that denies women in government, and the Quran allows it.

You clearly are not well informed, and believing the racist propaganda without any reason to do so, makes you racist, whether you want to be or not.
A presumption of guilt is an evil thing.
And the goal of the misinformation is genocide, whether you realize it or not.


Last edited by Rigby5, 4/22/2017, 5:05 pm
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I thought the doctor got off, that's what I think should happen, that is why I stated nothing wrong with repair or stitching after delivery. I don't know why you accuse me of not being well informed or familiar with Muslims, I have several close friends who are and had many co-workers and neighbors who were. "Muslims" come in many shades as do Christians or Jews, they practice devoutly, somewhere in the middle or barely at all. No one I knew had this done unless they didn't want to share it, no one believed in the 72 virgins or other made up crap that some Muslims practice as like some of the made up crap by various Christian faiths. To think that a Catholic or a Muslim follows the exact words of God/Allah is a big mistake, they all don't and we see that with many Christian faiths, no different for other religious groups either. I have no trouble with head scarves or covering, don't know where you pulled that out from, probably where you get the rest.
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


"Odds are it is just racist lies, designed to inflame violence."

That and holding up a mirror to, raising the awareness of, women of certain political bent who would both say that's not me, ever, nor would I ever contribute in anyway to it, explains my investment here.

Wouldn't it be racist, anti Semitic to go on like this about those barbaric mohels ?
4/22/2017, 6:00 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


I just got an email from one my close friends in the UK, she is from Iraq, we email weekly and always see each other when I am there, my other close friend is from Bangladesh, a male we often talk on the phone and he has been my friend for 30 yrs., and visits us every year, some how he is misinformed that I am appearing racist and anti Muslim, which couldn't be farther from the truth. The info I get is mostly out of the "horses mouth" and by years and years of observation and learning.
4/22/2017, 6:12 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

I thought the doctor got off, that's what I think should happen, ....



That is better.
I don't think the doctor got off and is still being prosecuted, just like the Indian doctor in Kentucky.

The point being that Muslims don't do FGM, but the press is falsely claiming they do and the government is targeting Muslims.

4/22/2017, 9:06 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Here's one that should be interesting,


quote:

Geezess wrote:

"Odds are it is just racist lies, designed to inflame violence."

That and holding up a mirror to, raising the awareness of, women of certain political bent who would both say that's not me, ever, nor would I ever contribute in anyway to it, explains my investment here.

Wouldn't it be racist, anti Semitic to go on like this about those barbaric mohels ?




When Christians and Jews were oppressing women, such as not allowing them to own property, inherit, divorce, be a leader, have a role in government, etc., it was Islam that had as its main goal, reforming all these past customs against women.
Islam is the only religion (of the 3 montheistic), that does give women rights and maintains they have a soul.

Semitic means "of the Arab language group".
4/22/2017, 9:12 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 


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