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Re: Too stupid to ignore


quote:

John1959 wrote:

quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Slavery would have gone down anyway, industrialization. They were forced to join the modern age and leave a culture from long ago.



I don't agree with that, Katie.

Whether running a plantation or a factory, some would have loved using free labor.

In fact if industry could have used slaves, the number of slaves probably would have increased.

And remember, even though slavery was abolished, it took another 100 years for blacks to gain some equality.



The thing about running a plantation was there were very few that owned thousands of acres of land or a hundreds of slaves. My family averaged between 9-10 which I originally envisioned a 'normal' home with not alot of acreage but it actually is a "Gone With the Wind" plantation with up to a 1,000 acres. None of those were running a corporation or factory, could or would where at $400 to $800 a slave plus expenses through life, would have been cost effective vs. a machine to replace them. I saw the factories of earlier times go down replaced by machinery and persons now are talking robots replacing people, slaves would have been replaced as not being as cost effective especially for a small business.
5/20/2017, 2:04 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


A co-worker's family once owned the 'Evergreen' plantation outside of N.O. LA, they at one time 'owned' some one hundred slaves including the children while farming over two thousand acres of swampy land recovered for rice and cotton. The farm as noted by the history lesson providing in a tour was in decline up to ten years before the civil war where the original 100 slaves had been reduced to less than 40 by entry into war with horse drawn and mule power becoming more evident in use. In essence machines had already begun the take over before the war initiated.

In that regard the remaining slaves were not fed as well, not kept in as good health as they were no longer as 'required' as once were. Even as there is a note as to Abolitionist efforts incurring more decline the decline had already begun prior to the war:

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5/20/2017, 1:40 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


The idea that slavery was on it's way out is a myth.

Slavery as part of the economic system was going strong in certain states in 1860.

Abolitionists had only been successful in Northern states, where the use of slaves was far less than the South.

The fact that there was argument over whether or not new states could be slave-holding or non-slave-holding proves this point. Why would anyone worry about new states allowing slavery if slavery was in decline where it already existed?

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5/20/2017, 3:26 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


quote:

John1959 wrote:

The idea that slavery was on it's way out is a myth.

Slavery as part of the economic system was going strong in certain states in 1860.

Abolitionists had only been successful in Northern states, where the use of slaves was far less than the South.

The fact that there was argument over whether or not new states could be slave-holding or non-slave-holding proves this point. Why would anyone worry about new states allowing slavery if slavery was in decline where it already existed?



Because they were dumb enough to do so? Slavery would still have ended if the Civil War had not taken place. Maybe not nearly so fast but it would have ended. There would have been lots of pressure to end it both internally and internationally.
5/20/2017, 4:22 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

John1959 wrote:

The idea that slavery was on it's way out is a myth.

Slavery as part of the economic system was going strong in certain states in 1860.

Abolitionists had only been successful in Northern states, where the use of slaves was far less than the South.

The fact that there was argument over whether or not new states could be slave-holding or non-slave-holding proves this point. Why would anyone worry about new states allowing slavery if slavery was in decline where it already existed?



Because they were dumb enough to do so? Slavery would still have ended if the Civil War had not taken place. Maybe not nearly so fast but it would have ended. There would have been lots of pressure to end it both internally and internationally.



No, they were not that dumb.

Yes, eventually it would have ended, but when? It took a war and a Constitutional amendment to end it.

It may have slowly started to go away, under the right conditions, but I can imagine slavery continuing beyond 1900.

Keep in mind that slavery wasn't simply about free labor on plantations. It was also about white supremacy, legally making backs second-class citizens, and the culture of America.

You can see that in how the slave-states continued to treat blacks poorly after the war.

It wasn't as if when slavery ended the nation began treating blacks as equals. That took at least another 100 years.

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5/20/2017, 4:50 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


quote:

John1959 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

John1959 wrote:

The idea that slavery was on it's way out is a myth.

Slavery as part of the economic system was going strong in certain states in 1860.

Abolitionists had only been successful in Northern states, where the use of slaves was far less than the South.

The fact that there was argument over whether or not new states could be slave-holding or non-slave-holding proves this point. Why would anyone worry about new states allowing slavery if slavery was in decline where it already existed?



Because they were dumb enough to do so? Slavery would still have ended if the Civil War had not taken place. Maybe not nearly so fast but it would have ended. There would have been lots of pressure to end it both internally and internationally.



No, they were not that dumb.

Yes, eventually it would have ended, but when? It took a war and a Constitutional amendment to end it.

It may have slowly started to go away, under the right conditions, but I can imagine slavery continuing beyond 1900.

Keep in mind that slavery wasn't simply about free labor on plantations. It was also about white supremacy, legally making backs second-class citizens, and the culture of America.

You can see that in how the slave-states continued to treat blacks poorly after the war.

It wasn't as if when slavery ended the nation began treating blacks as equals. That took at least another 100 years.



Irrelevant. Women weren't treated as equals either. They didn't get the right to vote until long after black men did. They were also treated as second class citizens but they weren't exactly slaves although in many cases there wasn't too much difference.

Slavery as an institution involving the free labor of black people would have ended on its own and I suspect that would have happened before the twentieth century began.

5/20/2017, 5:02 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

John1959 wrote:
No, they were not that dumb.

Yes, eventually it would have ended, but when? It took a war and a Constitutional amendment to end it.

It may have slowly started to go away, under the right conditions, but I can imagine slavery continuing beyond 1900.

Keep in mind that slavery wasn't simply about free labor on plantations. It was also about white supremacy, legally making backs second-class citizens, and the culture of America.

You can see that in how the slave-states continued to treat blacks poorly after the war.

It wasn't as if when slavery ended the nation began treating blacks as equals. That took at least another 100 years.



Irrelevant. Women weren't treated as equals either. They didn't get the right to vote until long after black men did. They were also treated as second class citizens but they weren't exactly slaves although in many cases there wasn't too much difference.

Slavery as an institution involving the free labor of black people would have ended on its own and I suspect that would have happened before the twentieth century began.



It's hardly Irrelevant.

No one seceded or started a war to prevent women from getting the right to vote. They were many that disagreed, but only slavery was an issue for which some would go to extremes.

I agree it would have ended, but it probably would have taken decades and several generations.

We have to ask; What would have brought about the end of slavery? As long as the need existed, as long as some could benefit, there remained the possibility for it to continue.

---
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5/20/2017, 5:40 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


Trains, modern farming equipment, new ways to farm agri, all would have made slavery uneconomical, I think that is hard to get around with you look at the late 19th century. I think it is important to also look at the differences between the north and south in the years before the civil war, it reads doomed for failure to me for the south. Also with the mortality rate for slaves and they lived half as long as whites and there was no more importation, they would be lacking in enough slaves to carry on in any big scale way with that modernization continuing on to what we see did develop in the late 19th century.
5/20/2017, 6:00 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


In the same process as slave ownership decline southern profits would have been better and production increased with machines. Would have taken a bite or rather another bite out of Northern manufacturers ability to control the materials supplies or prices ESPECIALLY if they formed their own nation OUTSIDE USA controlling legislation.
5/20/2017, 6:17 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


I can really rationalize the industries and those major manufacturing controllers as Carnegie or Rockefeller or Vanderbilt types of the day having to pay full price for raw goods rather than pimping the Fed to control costs. Would have cost them Millions in the then Dollar value.

A political war to basically shelter northern industry pricing.

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5/20/2017, 6:27 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Trains, modern farming equipment, new ways to farm agri, all would have made slavery uneconomical, I think that is hard to get around with you look at the late 19th century.



It's 2017 and farmers today depend on immigrant labor for picking crops.

Seems to me the need for such labor has always existed, no matter what equipment was available.

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5/21/2017, 12:13 am Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


You hand pick vegetables or fruits that have to be topped or freed from branches and carefully removed from a stalk or plant as done with lettuce or celery even strawberries. They tried machines years ago but too much soft damage for functional.

Crops as in row crops are machine set and machine Harvested. That is as with tobacco, cotton, sugar cane or beets etc. The staples of the old south.

Farm 'crops' can range from any form of large volume production but produce is generally hand picked.
5/21/2017, 1:50 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


There is a high level of selfishness in American society which tolerates evil.
5/21/2017, 2:04 am Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


Slavery was never economical.
It always cost less and produced more to have a profit incentive instead of force.

The problem was how to prevent mob rule.
And that still is the problem even now.
That is why we have such a horrible police state with things like the War on Drugs, and why we do not have things like public health care.
5/21/2017, 5:40 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


Economics in one's eye is persecution in another.

Many felt the mechanics as I and those I worked with were "Rich" as the garage was being paid tens of dollars per hour(now over $80 rural and $140 metro) expecting the men an d women on the floor to be receiving much of that. Factoid, Mechanics take less than 20% of a garage per hour cost as a mix benefit and payroll. Most of these work on a production rate; chargeable hours, flat rate fee system where should they have to work overtime to complete a task it is Yes, [sign in to see URL] for pay but based on total hours of week as to Paid Hours in percentage. A man may see two hours of OT but only charge out 22 hours which results in 1.5 of base hourly pay rate [sign in to see URL]. So if make $30/hr. is x .55 x 1.5 or LESS THAN normal rate at [sign in to see URL] but still greater than $30/hr. at 22 hours which for a 40 hour week equates to $[sign in to see URL] for a weeks work.

These people still buy their own tools, many pay for uniform laundering or clean their own and supply all their own specialized safety gear at their own expense.

The Garage is not by any sense making a fortune either, warranty work is a negative figure and NOT deductible as to taxes. Lost parts unwarrantable parts, many shop supplies are attempted to be recouped by a shop supplies or misc charge but it never equates to enough. Most garages make in the overall 1.2 the listed per hour figure for the hours the facility is open. and they have environmental fees, disposal fees, etc that are also non-deductible.

Production rates are not always a blessing to any party.
5/21/2017, 6:13 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


It wasn't as if when slavery ended the nation began treating blacks as equals. That took at least another 100 years.

I suppose equal treatment has begun to be adopted but it is still a long way off.

Women too - equal treatment is nowhere near being achieved. The US doesn't have that on its own.

Incidentally female suffrage occurred in 1893 in NZ.
Typical, left-wing nutters in the South Pacific. No wonder I made it my home. Of course it was my wife who decided that we would live here.
5/21/2017, 7:58 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: Too stupid to ignore


quote:

Yobbo wrote:

It wasn't as if when slavery ended the nation began treating blacks as equals. That took at least another 100 years.

I suppose equal treatment has begun to be adopted but it is still a long way off.

Women too - equal treatment is nowhere near being achieved. The US doesn't have that on its own.

Incidentally female suffrage occurred in 1893 in NZ.
Typical, left-wing nutters in the South Pacific. No wonder I made it my home. Of course it was my wife who decided that we would live here.



Women could not vote in the US until 1920.
5/22/2017, 10:45 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 


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