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mais oui Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


quote:

Mais...your knowledge of dog behavior is limited



I have had dogs my whole life, my family have been involved with working terriers (hunting foxes and badgers)for nearly half a century.

I have had no direct involvement with APBT but I have with other heavy terriers (Staffordshire and English bull terriers and Kerry Blue and wheaten)all of these breeds dont really require any training to go into a fox/badger earth and fight what they find down there it comes as naturally to them as drawing breath.

I find it almost impossible to believe that generations of being bred to fight other dogs has been so quickly bred out as you suggest.


Some dogs (after a great deal of effort) have had their former traits bred out of them - Boxers for example but even the boxer is still used to great effect as a working dog hunting feral pigs in New Zealand so the trait is still there its just dormant.


The problem with APBT however isnt a propensity to attack humans (because they are not more likely to attack a human than most other breeds) its the damage such a dog will inflict when it does attack a human, and Im sorry but like any dog however well you train it and however well you think you have psychological control over it you dont and all it takes is for some one to press the right buttons and it will attack

Yes all dogs can be trained to obey verbal commands, but equally all dogs will turn a deaf ear when it suits them - very few terriers can be called off a fox and once a greyhound is involved in a chase I dont think that it can be called back until the quarry is either caught or lost.

Even that most tractable of dog the collie (sheep dog) will occasionally decide that it is deaf.

---
HAPPINESS, THE IGNOBLE LIFE GOAL OF THE ILLITERATE
6/25/2017, 12:05 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

since they are so easily controlled verbally



Rigby you have absolutely no reason to believe that that is true. I showed you a video of two APBT dogs "locked on" no amout of verbal instruction would have moved them, pepper spray didnt move them and beating them with a stick wouldnt move them.

quote:

Dogs are like children


Now you are just being silly

...



Verbal commands have to be trained into them.
If no amount of verbal instructions would help, then they were not well trained.

But it is also easy to get any dog to call off.
Instead of shouting, hitting, or spray, all you have to do is control the breathing passage ways like the nose, or even tickling the stomach. It is not hard, even for someone like me who knows only a little about dogs.

How are dogs not like children when it comes to being dependent, subservient, and our responsibility since we created them?

6/25/2017, 3:54 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
mais oui Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


quote:

If no amount of verbal instructions would help, then they were not well trained



A dog is a living thing it is not a robot



quote:

Instead of shouting, hitting, or spray, all you have to do is control the breathing passage ways like the nose, or even tickling the stomach




I almost wet myself laughing at the thought of you tickling the stomach of a pit bull as it chewed on your leg

again I ask how long would YOU be prepared to have a dog chew on your leg whilst your suggestions were tried?


“A critical care nurse from Florida is suing [Caesar] Millan after a dog that was trained at, and released from, his Dog Psychology Center attacked and permanently disfigured her. Alison Bitney was allegedly attacked by Gus the dog [a pit bull] just six days after he was released from the Center. Claiming she suffered ‘disfiguring open wounds, deep muscle and tendon lacerations’ and bone fractures from the September 23, 2014 attack,

(Caesar Millan was supposed to be a leading dog trainer)

BONE FRACTURES!!!!

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6/25/2017, 4:08 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

If no amount of verbal instructions would help, then they were not well trained



A dog is a living thing it is not a robot



quote:

Instead of shouting, hitting, or spray, all you have to do is control the breathing passage ways like the nose, or even tickling the stomach




I almost wet myself laughing at the thought of you tickling the stomach of a pit bull as it chewed on your leg

again I ask how long would YOU be prepared to have a dog chew on your leg whilst your suggestions were tried?


“A critical care nurse from Florida is suing [Caesar] Millan after a dog that was trained at, and released from, his Dog Psychology Center attacked and permanently disfigured her. Alison Bitney was allegedly attacked by Gus the dog [a pit bull] just six days after he was released from the Center. Claiming she suffered ‘disfiguring open wounds, deep muscle and tendon lacerations’ and bone fractures from the September 23, 2014 attack,

(Caesar Millan was supposed to be a leading dog trainer)

BONE FRACTURES!!!!




A dog is a SOCIAL being as much as any human is.

It is the owner who is supposed to stop the pit bull attacks, not the victim.

Caesar was not there at these attacks, so is irrelevant. Dogs will be dogs, so it is always the owner who is at fault.
6/25/2017, 4:39 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


I agree with Rigby. Dogs are very social creatures.

There is a bond between them that will never be with another human.

Bad owners do not use a loving reward system in order for their dogs to respond to commands.

Bad owners are not consistent with their training process. Many do use a form of abuse to train them.(not ever right) emoticon

Same things apply to human behaviors too.

6/25/2017, 4:48 pm Link to this post PM msdulittle Blog
 
mais oui Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


It is the owner who is supposed to stop the pit bull attacks, not the victim

you are assuming
1) the owner is present
2) the owner is capable
3) the owner is willing

quote:

Caesar was not there at these attacks



Milan (or at least his organisation) TRAINED the dog!
so either he is not as good as his publicity OR the dog defied its training.


The two breeds of dog most likly to be involved in a fatal attack on a human are APBT and Rottweiler with fatal attacks by APBT out numbering Rottweiler attacks 6 to 1


31 U.S. dog bite-related fatalities occurred in 2016.
Pit bulls contributed to 71% (22) of these deaths.
Pit bulls make up about 6% of the total U.S. dog population
2016 and rottweilers were involved in 2 fatal attacks

42% (13) of all dog bite fatality victims in 2016 were either visiting or living temporarily with the dog's owner when the fatal attack occurred


In 2016, only 6% (2) of all deadly attacks resulted in meaningful criminal charges


http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2016.php




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6/25/2017, 5:16 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
katie5445 Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


I wonder if I am a "bad owner" I have a half border collie/Aussie Shepherd who does not follow dog rules, I think she thinks we are sheep. She is not social with other dogs and never off leash unless in the middle of nowhere. I have to be careful with strangers coming into the house, turn your back, she'll bite your ass. However she likes cats for some reason, especially the one she thinks she owns but it is the other way around. Nothing however is ever the fault of the dog, it is the fault of the owner whether a "good one" or "bad one." whether present, capable or willing or you forgot to mend that hole in your fence, she escaped out the door, out the car, it is still the owners reponsibility.
6/25/2017, 5:28 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
mais oui Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


sounds like typical behaviour for a sheep dog.

Most of them go absolutely crazy if not given an outlet for their herding behaviour.

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6/25/2017, 5:38 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Reply | Quote
Re: Police need to be disarmed.


quote:

mais oui wrote:

It is the owner who is supposed to stop the pit bull attacks, not the victim

you are assuming
1) the owner is present
2) the owner is capable
3) the owner is willing

quote:

Caesar was not there at these attacks



Milan (or at least his organisation) TRAINED the dog!
so either he is not as good as his publicity OR the dog defied its training.


The two breeds of dog most likly to be involved in a fatal attack on a human are APBT and Rottweiler with fatal attacks by APBT out numbering Rottweiler attacks 6 to 1


31 U.S. dog bite-related fatalities occurred in 2016.
Pit bulls contributed to 71% (22) of these deaths.
Pit bulls make up about 6% of the total U.S. dog population
2016 and rottweilers were involved in 2 fatal attacks

42% (13) of all dog bite fatality victims in 2016 were either visiting or living temporarily with the dog's owner when the fatal attack occurred


In 2016, only 6% (2) of all deadly attacks resulted in meaningful criminal charges


http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2016.php






If a dog owners is not present, capable, or willing to prevent biting, then obviously it is the owner's fault.

No one but the owner can actually train any dog. What a professional trainer like Caesar does is try to train the owner. If the owner refuses to keep it going, that is the owner's fault.
6/25/2017, 6:29 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
John1959 Profile
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Re: Police need to be disarmed.


quote:

mais oui wrote:
John I could give links to an opposing view of APBT but suffice to say that some of the stuff in your link is demonstrably untrue - it is likely that no APBT was ever used in the sport of bull baiting which was outlawed almsot a century before the invention of the breed.
The APBT was bred as a fighting dog and it is that at which it excels



I have to admit to not being correct when I said, "Pit Bulls were not originally bred to be attack dogs. "

According to this...

These were originally bred from Old English Bulldogs, who gained popularity in the 1800s on the British Isles in a blood sport known as “bull baiting” (tying a bull to an iron stake that gave him approximately 30 feet to move, and then setting dogs on it in an attempt to immobilize the bull for public entertainment). Bloodsports were outlawed in 1835 in the UK, so “rat-baiting” and dogfighting – which were easier to hide from police – became the new sports of popularity. Bulldogs were crossed with Terriers and then released into a “pit” to chase and kill rats or fight one another, thus beginning the “Pit Bull” type of dog.
http://cdn.barkpost.com/good/pit-bulls-history-of-americas-dog/

However...


In the early stages of America, many immigrants brought their treasured Pit Bull dogs over as part of their families. Though the dogs were bred for fighting sports, the were also incredibly intelligent and friendly. They were used for a variety of jobs that included farming, protecting the family from predators, watching the children, and providing companionship. As the popularity of newspapers and media grew throughout the years, many of these dogs were brought to attention for the number of exemplary deeds they performed.

How, you might ask, could a dog that was bred to fight aggressively also be kind to humans? The answer is actually in their breeding. Pit Bulls that bit handlers were put down and of no use to the owners, so they were bred and trained to be gentle with humans — a trait that most are still well-known for to this day.


And then...

So with all of these stellar examples of beloved and well–mannered Pit Bulls in history, where did it all start to go wrong?

In the 1960s, ’70s, and particularly ’80s, dogfighting began to see a resurgence. As people saw more of these large dogs in spiked collars on street corners, a natural fear evolved. In conjunction with fighting, it was not uncommon for owners of these dogs to be abusive and encouraged aggressive behaviors to boost their intimidating image. They also took to breeding their own dogs outside of American Kennel Club and American Dog Breeding Association regulations, leading to an overpopulation of Pit Bull types. These things still take place today, despite the outlawing of all dog fighting in 1978, and continue to contribute to the negative image of the Pit Bull.

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“I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.” - NRA president Karl T. Frederick, 1938
6/25/2017, 6:40 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 


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