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Re: Diesel is Cleaner After All


Fuel economic for a internal combustion engine is fairly straight forward strict physics. Takes X btu to derive Y HP, it taks a fixed value HP to move one pound material in a straight line. Those factors do not change much where the old wive's tale cars of the 50's/60's getting humongous MPG with carburation was as much far fetched.

Make the car too light it is endangered by strong winds even with aerodynamic design cannot compensate for 50-80mph side blasts as in KS. Have to have some weight for tire adhesion to road surface then there are the inconsequential conditions as accidents where the machine parks on the road awaiting release by the police and eating fuel to no miles to stay cool. Rain is not factored anymore than slippery stuff like snow/ice. Again cannot beat physics and the rules that apply to machines of motion.
7/17/2017, 7:57 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Diesel is Cleaner After All


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

Fuel economic for a internal combustion engine is fairly straight forward strict physics. Takes X btu to derive Y HP, it taks a fixed value HP to move one pound material in a straight line. Those factors do not change much where the old wive's tale cars of the 50's/60's getting humongous MPG with carburation was as much far fetched.

Make the car too light it is endangered by strong winds even with aerodynamic design cannot compensate for 50-80mph side blasts as in KS. Have to have some weight for tire adhesion to road surface then there are the inconsequential conditions as accidents where the machine parks on the road awaiting release by the police and eating fuel to no miles to stay cool. Rain is not factored anymore than slippery stuff like snow/ice. Again cannot beat physics and the rules that apply to machines of motion.



All true, but if a VW bug can get 40 mpg 50 years ago when they did not really even care about gasoline prices, it should not be at all hard to get at least twice that now.

If instead of the emissions testing only checking parts per million, they tested for total emissions, then cars would be getting a whole lot smaller and lighter, and be getting a lot better mileage.
7/18/2017, 5:12 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Diesel is Cleaner After All


VW weighed in at one ton(US 2000#) while the engine was only rated 60 HP in 1971. Air cooled with belt driven fan, no water pump, power steer pump, no A/C compressor, no real parasitic engine loads to speak of. Had but six fuses and a 35amp 12v generator.

It was wind prone on the highway, had a maximum speed of 81mph(I did try it) rode on 15" very narrow low rolling resistance bias ply tires which I converted to radials late in its life due to accessibility and price yet did not change fuel economy.

With four persons in the car maximum speed declined to 76mph, flat on floor on flat highway. Was pretty well useless as to carrying any real load as luggage/gear with passengers. My cousin's 1969 VW Microbus had been upgraded to 73HP(1600cc) from 57HP(1340cc) with roof rack and could carry six relatively easy at 65mph with gear or luggage but that was maximum speed attainable.
7/18/2017, 12:52 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Diesel is Cleaner After All


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

VW weighed in at one ton(US 2000#) while the engine was only rated 60 HP in 1971. Air cooled with belt driven fan, no water pump, power steer pump, no A/C compressor, no real parasitic engine loads to speak of. Had but six fuses and a 35amp 12v generator.

It was wind prone on the highway, had a maximum speed of 81mph(I did try it) rode on 15" very narrow low rolling resistance bias ply tires which I converted to radials late in its life due to accessibility and price yet did not change fuel economy.

With four persons in the car maximum speed declined to 76mph, flat on floor on flat highway. Was pretty well useless as to carrying any real load as luggage/gear with passengers. My cousin's 1969 VW Microbus had been upgraded to 73HP(1600cc) from 57HP(1340cc) with roof rack and could carry six relatively easy at 65mph with gear or luggage but that was maximum speed attainable.



The original design was not for civilian use, but instead as an off road military jeep.
They only made 2 of the civilian body before or during the war, so they could sell a wage withholding plan from suckers.
The VW Thing is much more what was actually made. The difference mostly being suicide doors, 19" tires, and a huge military style gas filler flap.
--Log in or sign up to see linked image content--
The solid pan and heavy torsion bar beam front suspension was much heavier than was necessary for a civilian car.
Part of the wandering in the wind was the narrow off road wheelbase, and the high ground clearance.
I could change a clutch on a VW van in less than 20 minutes. Nothing was at all hard to do. Probably the most difficult thing was if the heater cable broke, because you had to ream the dirt out of the tubes before the new cable would pass through the tubes to the flaps on the engine. And the poor heat in the winter was likely its worst feature. ( lived in WI at the time)
7/18/2017, 9:56 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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I liked the early VW's, they were built to a purpose and performed it well, nowadays the auto industry tries for some form of excellence that really no one 'needs' has too much parasitic load on engines and use too much fuel regardless the 'economy' as noted for overly light, somewhat comfortable yet overly complex machines.

People of the 1960's traveled far less than today, my brothers and I can remember a high mile five year old auto 'in the day' receiving less than 10,000 miles/year, that is now around 25-30,000/year.
7/19/2017, 11:41 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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cooter50 wrote:

I liked the early VW's, they were built to a purpose and performed it well, nowadays the auto industry tries for some form of excellence that really no one 'needs' has too much parasitic load on engines and use too much fuel regardless the 'economy' as noted for overly light, somewhat comfortable yet overly complex machines.

People of the 1960's traveled far less than today, my brothers and I can remember a high mile five year old auto 'in the day' receiving less than 10,000 miles/year, that is now around 25-30,000/year.



Yes things have changed.
I typically do not driver over 65 mph because I notice my fuel consumption rapidly goes up at higher speeds.
But now I am almost the slowest person on the roads.
Cops, passengers, trucks, etc., are all passing me by at least 10 mph or so.
Many must be doing well over 80 mph, especially cops.
7/19/2017, 11:24 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Personally I have no desire to return to the 60's, they were fine right where and when they were. Still need to change the mentality of the US driver, to less time behind a wheel and more time productive.
7/19/2017, 11:27 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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No, the imperial gallon is never used in the calculations.



It is in the UK!!!

all the other vehicles you mention has having astronomical mpg figures are either concept or specialist vehicles NOT normal mass produced cars for the mass market.


a 1970s beetle might well have achieved 40mpg but it only produced about 40bhp had no electric windows, crappy lighting and no air con (a major power drain)as was pointed out a gallon of fuel only has a certain amount of energy in it and it takes a fixed amount of energy to accelerate a mass from zero to what ever speed, actually maintaining that speed on flat level road actually takes very little power.

the only way that you can improve mpg is by increasing efficiency at that is currently maxing out at about 35% efficient (the rest being converted into wasted heat)- a figure which is theoretical more than practical - the faster an automobile can accelerate the more fuel it uses, having a engine which doesnt automatically stop when the vehicle is stationary wastes more fuel - air can (as previously stated uses masses of power - up to 5 horse power) add in such other niceties as power steering a decent sound system, electric seats etc etc and your engine might be having to generate 7 horse power before you even progress down the road - the first Beetles only made 25BHP!

Once you have maximised engine performance - and maintaining the standards of comfort we have come to demand the only other route is to reduce rolling resistance and air resistance, air resistance isnt a big problem at low speeds - it relates to the cube of the speed other things being equal if you want to double your top speed you must cube your engine power (if 25BHP lets you reach 70 MPH to reach 140 MPH you will need 625 BHP!!!) you can reduce rolling rersistance to a point larger diameter tires thinner tires harder tires all of which will reduce rolling resistance - but will make the handling and comfort awful - although if you limit top speed to 45MPH that might not matter much!

Incidentally where I am currently situated a significant number of cars are electric I have seen every thing from a "Gwizz" (google it) to a Tessla! there are charge points almost every where but surprisingly few gas stations - although at £[sign in to see URL] per liter I suppose that isnt too surprising

Last edited by mais oui, 7/20/2017, 9:59 am
7/20/2017, 9:25 am Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Diesel is Cleaner After All


quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

No, the imperial gallon is never used in the calculations.



It is in the UK!!!

all the other vehicles you mention has having astronomical mpg figures are either concept or specialist vehicles NOT normal mass produced cars for the mass market.


a 1970s beetle might well have achieved 40mpg but it only produced about 40bhp had no electric windows, crappy lighting and no air con (a major power drain)as was pointed out a gallon of fuel only has a certain amount of energy in it and it takes a fixed amount of energy to accelerate a mass from zero to what ever speed, actually maintaining that speed on flat level road actually takes very little power.

the only way that you can improve mpg is by increasing efficiency at that is currently maxing out at about 35% efficient (the rest being converted into wasted heat)- a figure which is theoretical more than practical - the faster an automobile can accelerate the more fuel it uses, having a engine which doesnt automatically stop when the vehicle is stationary wastes more fuel - air can (as previously stated uses masses of power - up to 5 horse power) add in such other niceties as power steering a decent sound system, electric seats etc etc and your engine might be having to generate 7 horse power before you even progress down the road - the first Beetles only made 25BHP!

Once you have maximised engine performance - and maintaining the standards of comfort we have come to demand the only other route is to reduce rolling resistance and air resistance, air resistance isnt a big problem at low speeds - it relates to the cube of the speed other things being equal if you want to double your top speed you must cube your engine power (if 25BHP lets you reach 70 MPH to reach 140 MPH you will need 625 BHP!!!) you can reduce rolling rersistance to a point larger diameter tires thinner tires harder tires all of which will reduce rolling resistance - but will make the handling and comfort awful - although if you limit top speed to 45MPH that might not matter much!

Incidentally where I am currently situated a significant number of cars are electric I have seen every thing from a "Gwizz" (google it) to a Tessla! there are charge points almost every where but surprisingly few gas stations - although at £[sign in to see URL] per liter I suppose that isnt too surprising



The point is not what is being sold but why better mileage cars are not being sold, even though they could be.

And before we once again get derailed on electric vehicles, again, most electricity not only is from burning fossil fuels, but also the efficiency of generating, transmitting, storing, retrieving, and converting electricity back into kinetic energy is very wasteful, and we would need to spend trillions on 4 times the power plants we have now, in order to charge all those electric vehicles.

We do not need electric windows, power steering, electric door locks, or even AC. Moving vehicles can do quite well with swamp coolers that only require a little water.

The 1970s beetle was intended to be cheap, not the ultimate. By increasing the compression ratio and breathing, you can double its power. There are people who drag race VWs and sell kits to get over 500 hp out of the same old 1970s air cooled engine.
But there are far more efficient engines than that, and can be better than 50% efficient. A 2 stroke diesel weighing less than 80 lbs can put out more than 80 hp.
The main problem with fuel efficiency is weight, (acceleration or up hills), so making everything lighter is the main key.

The point is that EVs just move where the fossil fuels are burned, so don't solve anything. Instead we have to make vehicles lighter so they don't consume as much energy, and then we may be able to use renewables, like peanut oil.
7/20/2017, 11:08 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Diesel is Cleaner After All


Could wish in one hand poop in the other and resign to the net result too Rigs.

Had it made a bigger dent, been a better alternative and lasted a bit longer on the road as well had the engine changed from gas to diesel at a lesser price I could have done one of these:

[sign in to see URL]
7/20/2017, 5:01 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 


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