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What if the South won the Civil War?


What if the South won the Civil War?

HBO's plans to do a television series slated for 2019 called "Confederate," led by producers David Benioff and D.B Weiss, the creators of the very popular "Game of Thrones." The premise of their show is an alternative history in which the Confederacy actually wins the Civil War. It is set in present day.

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[Its hard to imagine a television series about present day America where slavery is nation wide because the South won the Civil war. Why would anyone bring about the anger that would be sure to follow from black Americans confronted with such an idea? The Confederate flag flying over the White House alone would bring protests and violence. It's a crazy idea and I hope these people come to their senses. What do you think.]


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8/12/2017, 9:20 am Link to this post PM Noserose
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


Even had the south been victorious it is doubtful the institution of slavery would have survived for very long.
However I imagine the laws concerning race would be rather unpleasant and the civil war might well have been repeated, perhaps several times. Some northern states may have tried to become part of Canada.
I can't imagine the US having the status it has now had the south won. I rather think America would not have been able to push its weight around the way it does now.

As to the tv production of "what if?" - they'd have to make it very, very clear that it is simply fantasy
8/12/2017, 9:57 am Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


quote:

Yobbo wrote:
Even had the south been victorious it is doubtful the institution of slavery would have survived for very long.



I don't agree. We cannot possibly know, but it most likely would have continued for several decades. When I was born, blacks in the South did not have equality. That took about 100 years after the end of slavery.

Not having seen this series, I can't say much about it. It's possible that their goal is to get people to understand what the war was truly about considering so many Americans do not seem to know.

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8/12/2017, 12:51 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


What if the South won the Civil War?

Which side would they have on during WWII ?
8/12/2017, 4:00 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


Odd that no one wishes to deal with that fair question, isn't it ?
8/13/2017, 5:51 am Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


Fair question.
The chances are the US would still have gone into WWI because the South was even tighter with England than the North was.
So then likely the US would still then also have gone into WWII as an ally of England.
White supremacy was not really an issue with Germany. Germany was bigoted, but those they thought inferior, like Poles, Slavs, and Jews, were also white.
 The South and Nazis would not have gotten along.

Last edited by Rigby5, 8/14/2017, 3:18 am
8/14/2017, 3:17 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


WWII is all speculation.

The point is that if the South had won slavery would have continued and spread to new states joining the union.

How long slavery would have remained legal we can only guess. No doubt abolitionists would have continued the fight.


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“I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.” - NRA president Karl T. Frederick, 1938
8/14/2017, 1:17 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


Slavery was always in contradiction to the concept of a democratic republic, and even the South had to be aware of that because they still insisted on the 3/5ths represenation rule as far as electoral college votes per state.

{...The Three-Fifths Compromise was a compromise reached between delegates from southern states and those from northern states during the 1787 United States Constitutional Convention. The debate was over whether, and if so, how, slaves would be counted when determining a state's total population for legislative representation and taxing purposes. The issue was important, as this population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years. The effect was to give the southern states a third more seats in Congress and a third more electoral votes than if slaves had been ignored, but fewer than if slaves and free persons had been counted equally, allowing the slaveholder interests to largely dominate the government of the United States until 1861.[1] The compromise was proposed by delegates James Wilson and Roger Sherman. ...}

But slavery was always uneconomical as well, since people always work harder and faster if motivated by the illusion of opportunity.
8/14/2017, 1:28 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?



"So then likely the US would still then also have gone into WWII as an ally of England."

Really ?
First, the Victorian British interest in the American South was geo-political, and just a passing folly, so not really in The Empire's best economic interest .
What did the American South have that there was not more of, (and better quality like Egyptian cotton) than elsewhere in their Empire ?
 
Now, still, as the Confederate flag wavers showed this weekend, the CSA would have shared the same racist, law and order, and elitist values as whom ?

If you look at WWI as your basis, are you being narrow minded. Never mind the dominate
isolationist attitudes over that war between Queen Victorian's grandchildren fairly being thought of having nothing to do with us, and then ask why would the CSA care about the Germans sinking a ship carrying Yankee arms to Britain ?

Granted it speculation, but remember that the British Empire was "abolitionist" from 1830, and so with whom would Ole Dixie interest and
sympathies been with in the Boer War ?

  

 
8/14/2017, 2:45 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


quote:

Geezess wrote:

What if the South won the Civil War?

Which side would they have on during WWII ?



America might have sent help to the Axis powers rather than the Allies and thus Japan wouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor and nudged the Nazis into declaring war on the US..
So perhaps America would have stayed out of the whole mess. The Allies would still have won. (After all the Soviets had more or less wiped them by the time the Germans declared war on the US.)
8/14/2017, 9:18 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


... then the Nazi would have won .
You sound like you are say yaeh, to that.
Sorry.
8/14/2017, 9:32 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


quote:

Geezess wrote:

... then the Nazi would have won .
You sound like you are say yaeh, to that.
Sorry.



To whom was this addressed?

If it were me, what I said was that the Soviets had more or less defeated the Germans on the Eastern Front, so the Nazis would not have necessarily won.
8/14/2017, 11:29 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


quote:

Yobbo wrote:

quote:

Geezess wrote:

... then the Nazi would have won .
You sound like you are say yaeh, to that.
Sorry.



To whom was this addressed?

If it were me, what I said was that the Soviets had more or less defeated the Germans on the Eastern Front, so the Nazis would not have necessarily won.



The Soviets did get a lot of material from the US, such as trucks and P-39 Airacobra fighters.
8/15/2017, 2:28 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


What if the South won the Civil War? Well, in that unlikelyq scenario, the entire history of the United Stmates and the rest of the world would have changed. And one of the insignificant results off that scenario is that I would never have been born. I'll let you figure out the reasons. But they have to do with the US having a far different foreign policy at the time of WWII. Thus most likely eliminating any possibility of my father ending up as a part of the U.N. administration of the Free Territory of Trieste during the nine years following the War. And since I would not have existed, there is little reason for me to worry about "what if" .

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8/15/2017, 3:12 pm Link to this post PM GoHawk Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


quote:

Yobbo wrote:

quote:

Geezess wrote:

... then the Nazi would have won .
You sound like you are say yaeh, to that.
Sorry.



To whom was this addressed?

If it were me, what I said was that the Soviets had more or less defeated the Germans on the Eastern Front, so the Nazis would not have necessarily won.



Yeah, you Yob.
You are being simplistic.
Rigby already made my point:

But I intended to do it this ways:

Total arms and material support given to the USSR in WWII:

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference in 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war."[21][22]

The most impactful help the Allies offered in WWII to the USSR from 1941 consisted of economic and military aid (such as US Lend-Lease that started in October 1941), followed by the ability to tie down some number of German and Italian divisions and weapons in Western Europe and North Africa. Half of Soviet agriculture was gone before harvest time in 1941. With much of Soviet industry destroyed by November 1941, or being shipped East in containers on slow trains, the Soviet economy would have likely collapsed without urgent help. While this was acknowledged by Stalin, this was not disclosed in Soviet media at the time, and not emphasized in Soviet history books. However, the total amount (about $100B in todays dollars, from the US alone) is significant. Soviet literature and movies from the time often mention American trucks, ham, and other aid.

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8/15/2017, 5:32 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


The only thing that I feel fairly sure about is that slavery would have started dying away because of the expanding use of mechanized farming. Slavery would have been too expensive to keep up. I don't know how long it would have taken to die away completely. At any rate, blacks would still have been under Jim Crow laws for nobody knows how long.

I like to think that the states would have eventually gotten back together, but then again they may not have.
8/15/2017, 5:41 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


The TV show mentioned in the opening is not the only media treatment of thios question.

one is in planing

HBO's 'Confederate' TV show: What if South won Civil War and still ...
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Jul 20, 2017 - "Game of Thrones" creators announced the new project about a third Civil War.

and there is old around:

[sign in to see URL].: The Confederate States of America (2004) - IMDb
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 Rating: 6.4/10 - ‎4,312 votes
Comedy · Through the eyes of a British "documentary", this film takes a satirically humorous, and ... look at the history of an America where the South won the Civil War. ... Interspersed throughout are various TV commercials of products of a virulent racist nature ... Show detailed company contact information on IMDbPro » ...

Here, you can watch it: '

[sign in to see URL].: The Confederate States of America - YouTube
Video for [sign in to see URL].: The Confederate States of America (2004)▶ 1:28:29
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[sign in to see URL].: The Confederate States of America is a 2004 mockumentary directed by Kevin Willmott. It's a ...

But I'll not embed it's because it is so long. Go if you are interested enough.
8/15/2017, 5:57 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

The only thing that I feel fairly sure about is that slavery would have started dying away because of the expanding use of mechanized farming. Slavery would have been too expensive to keep up. I don't know how long it would have taken to die away completely. At any rate, blacks would still have been under Jim Crow laws for nobody knows how long.

I like to think that the states would have eventually gotten back together, but then again they may not have.




I think the southern plantation owners just were being infatuated with power. Slavery never made any economic sense. It is always far more profitable to do the share cropper or paid servant routine, because then you don't have to pay support when there is nothing to do between planting and harvesting.
Let the tenants figure out how to make money to pay the rent when the crops don't need any labor.
8/15/2017, 7:02 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


I just watched [sign in to see URL].: The Confederate States of America and the twist that no one here imagined was that with military aid from England and France Lee was victorious at Gettysburg and and when on to conquer the whole North.
So all of America was the CSA.

Spoiler alert...

Some interesting twists were that during Reconstitution a income tax was imposed on the Northerners, but if they bought a slave they were excused from it. Foreshadowing the tax cuts for the wealthy.

The CSA conquers Mexico and the Caribbean Islands and tries to conquer all of South America, but can't really manage it because of freedom fighters.

They ended the Great Depression by re-establishing the slave trade, worldwide.

As I suggested they they did not really like Hitler because his extermination of the Jews was seen as wasteful of potential slave labor. But the CSA remained neutral as a kind of State's right thing. So Hitler won and Europe was pure Aryan.

On Dec. 7th, 1941 the CSA launched a surprise attack on Japan.

The Cold War, the Red Scare was focused on abolitionist Canada. Trump's border wall, gets built, but on the Northern border. It is the Cotton Curtain.

There are lots of twists and turns taken from real history with original film footage but the famous quotes are given whole different meanings.

Something that made me laugh was how the woman lib movement was about the white masters breeding with their female slaves pissing off their wives. But the backlash was that women never did get the vote.

I feel like that the slaves keep getting lighter skinned, with nothing much really said about it, until it, and "passing" becomes a huge political scandal.



   

Last edited by Geezess, 8/15/2017, 9:05 pm
8/15/2017, 8:03 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


the only way the south would have won the war would have been to have killed Abraham Lincoln early in the war, rather than at the end. At a time early in the war, with the Union Army in disarray, one cannot imagine the utter dissaster of Andrew Johnson as CIC. Within months of Lincoln's early death, the Union Would have sued for peace;and allowed the Confederacy to go its own way. But the longer Lincoln's leadership survived, the less likely a possible Confederate victory became. And the battles of Gettysbirg and Vicksburg on the same July 4 holiday all but signed, sealed, and delivered a union victory.

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8/16/2017, 8:05 am Link to this post PM GoHawk Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


What if Lincoln had chosen to allow the secession of the southern states and NO battles fought?

No war, no rapid growth away from sailing ships, no development of heavily armored steam powered ships, the development of better steels, the invention of breach loading weapons and so on.

Would or could the world have seen a WWI? Would it have then seen a WWII had WWI not occurred? Would Russia still have had the Revolution? All in doubt without the first affect.

Could it have been the settings of the battles and the inventiveness of the militarist need for better weapons that has brought us to where we are now?
8/17/2017, 3:51 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


Has been posed prior:

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8/17/2017, 3:56 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


If anyone doubts that the Civil War was about slavery, the vice president of the Confederacy's explanation should take away that doubt:

As the vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, explained in 1861, Jefferson was all wrong about equality. “Our new government is founded … its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the Negro is not the equal of the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this physical, philosophical and moral truth,” Stephens declared.

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8/17/2017, 5:28 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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When you remove the auspicious bias of US authors the truth of the matter is far beyond that of 'slavery' it was in fact forced economic pressure as well the need to place pressure upon those southern states to bend to the will of the northern states via a maligned imbalanced Congress.

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8/17/2017, 6:01 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


As a matter of fact, the slave states had unequal representation in the House and the Electoral College, since slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person for choosing the number of representatives a state was entitled to, but were not allowed to vote in elections.

If represented equally, the southern states would have had 33 congressional representatives (and votes in the Electoral College). Under the 3/5 rule, they had 47.

There's more detail at this link:

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8/17/2017, 6:25 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


America would not have had so many super athletes if blacks were still slaves.
8/17/2017, 8:30 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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It was intended by A. Lincoln to send them back to Africa or those nations they once came from. Had he survived it may have happened. Liberia was established earlier as to that colony for re-patriating blacks.
8/17/2017, 9:09 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


That's incorrect. At one time Lincoln thought re-colonization to Central America was a good solution, but after the Emancipation Proclamation became law, he no longer sought that solution. The Proclamation was adopted two years before the end of the war, and two years before Lincoln's death.

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8/17/2017, 9:20 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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He had not given in fully to end the repatriation, that is within his memoir writings at his library in Springfield IL. Well studied by Law students and reflected to me by an attorney I once dealt with in a discussion as to day issues.
8/17/2017, 9:28 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: What if the South won the Civil War?


According to the link I provided, at no time did Lincoln consider repatriation. He didn't think of sending them back to the place they came from. And any re-colonization would be voluntary on their part. Perhaps you have documentation for what the attorney you once dealt with told you?
8/17/2017, 9:32 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 


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