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msdulittle Profile
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


 John your opinion is they shouldn't have been built...many others believe they should have been built. Who's opinion supercedes whom's?

Doesn't matter when they were built or why they were built...freedom of speech should be for all not just a select few. Do you think the feelings associated with their admirers will be stopped from simply removing them? I don't believe it will do anything but make a big sore erupt.

This !@#$ needs to come to a head and freedom of speech should remain free for all. PC nonsense has gotten ridiculous. It needs to be stopped now.

There will always be things some people don't like and others do. I'm not for caving in to one group over the other.

I'm for fairness and equality.
9/1/2017, 1:04 pm Link to this post PM msdulittle Blog
 
Bellelettres Profile
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


Msdulittle, just listen to yourself:

"I'm sick of hearing how they should be removed and a select group should be mollycoddled.
  
"They represent something important to some people. Why should they be taken away simply because we might not like them or agree with what they represent?

"We can argue for the next year..but the fact is that removal of these monuments is causing a big festering sore among groups of people in the US."

Group 1 (the "select group" who are getting "mollycoddled") doesn't matter, even though they are the ones the statues were put there in the first place to intimidate.

Group 2 matters, and removal of the statues is a "festering sore" to them. They matter, because they sympathize with the men in the statues who enslaved and killed the ancestors of the people the statues were erected to intimidate.

Is that the way you really feel?
9/1/2017, 1:09 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


quote:

msdulittle wrote:

Shift & John...it really doesn't matter why they were built...it matters that they were built (to some people).

We can argue for the next year..but the fact is that removal of these monuments is causing a big festering sore among groups of people in the US. Eventually the sore will erupt. What do you guys propose to do when it does?

If we are truly a country of equal rights and freedom of speech they should remain standing. If not, then remove all not a select few of the monuments and be fair to everyone. Make everyone become more miserable and hate filled. Not just the people you don't agree with.



I disagree - it does matter why they were built. That's part of the problem. People think; What's wrong with honoring these men?

They were not honoring the men, they were honoring their cause. They were honoring the concept of white supremacy.

These statues stand as monuments to misunderstanding history. To this day, we have people claiming the Civil War was not about slavery. Children have grown up seeing these statues and thinking these must have been great, honorable men - why else would there be a statue of the man in the middle of the city? Therefore they must have done great things. Their cause must have been a good one.

But it's all a lie.

We cannot move forward when people cling to a lie of the past.

---
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9/1/2017, 1:30 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


Belle please don't twist what i'm saying to suit your thoughts. I didn't say i was for one group or the other. I'm for fairness and equality for all.

What people think or revere will not hurt anyone...their actions are the only thing that can hurt.

These metal monuments are not hurting anyone, unless they allow themselves to be hurt.

And yes i'm sick of political correctness because one groups feelings are exalted and the other groups feelings are trampled on. One groups likes and dislikes/feelings shouldn't supersede the others.


 

9/1/2017, 1:40 pm Link to this post PM msdulittle Blog
 
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


And you don't see that the feelings of the oppressors are "trampling on" the feelings of the oppressed.

If you don't see it, you don't see it.
9/1/2017, 1:49 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
msdulittle Profile
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

And you don't see that the feelings of the oppressors are "trampling on" the feelings of the oppressed.

If you don't see it, you don't see it.




We all see what we want to see...i see equals accepting that sh*t happened and will continue to happen. Don't dwell on it..get over it and act like adults. You see skinheads as oppressors i see them as people exercising their freedom of speech...which i don't agree with by the way... but i can survive knowing they feel this way.

We are all entitled to freedom of thought and speech in this country. Each and every individual, no matter what their preferences may be.

People can not hurt you with words or monuments only you can allow them to do so.
9/1/2017, 2:25 pm Link to this post PM msdulittle Blog
 
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


quote:

msdulittle wrote:
We all see what we want to see...i see equals accepting that sh*t happened and will continue to happen. Don't dwell on it..get over it and act like adults. You see skinheads as oppressors i see them as people exercising their freedom of speech...which i don't agree with by the way... but i can survive knowing they feel this way.

We are all entitled to freedom of thought and speech in this country. Each and every individual, no matter what their preferences may be.

People can not hurt you with words or monuments only you can allow them to do so.



Yes, we are all entitled to free speech and thought - until that speech or thought infringes on the rights of others.

Yes, words and monuments and symbols cannot hurt us, but they can promote ideas that can hurt us.

Hitler used these things and it led to the death of millions.

It's one thing to allow neo-Nazis or neo-Confederates to march in the streets. It's something else to allow them to build monuments and statues and flay their flag over capitol buildings.

I cannot prevent someone from hanging a picture of Hitler on their livingroom wall, but I'll be damned if I'll allow it in my state's capitol building.

---
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9/1/2017, 2:53 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid



Yes, we are all entitled to free speech and thought - until that speech or thought infringes on the rights of others.


And there lies the crux of the matter. With removal of these monuments, there is infringement on someones rights. Why should this be allowed and who are we to say what should or shouldn't be done?

There are many things in life that can't be changed after the fact. Acceptance that it did happen and trying to do better goes a long way

9/1/2017, 3:05 pm Link to this post PM msdulittle Blog
 
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


quote:

With removal of these monuments, there is infringement on someones rights.



So what you're saying is the rights of the oppressors are more important than those of the oppressed?

BTW - I disagree with John's early comment that these monuments were erected to honor a cause. They were erected to remind a certain segment of society where they belonged - that's not honoring anything - it's simply saying "hey n* - remember, you ain't worth nuthin"
9/1/2017, 3:12 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
msdulittle Profile
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Re: What South Africa did with its monuments after Apartheid


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

quote:

With removal of these monuments, there is infringement on someones rights.



So what you're saying is the rights of the oppressors are more important than those of the oppressed?

BTW - I disagree with John's early comment that these monuments were erected to honor a cause. They were erected to remind a certain segment of society where they belonged - that's not honoring anything - it's simply saying "hey n* - remember, you ain't worth nuthin"



How can you be sure that was the intent of the monuments?

I think it's time to cut the nonsense and get over what happened. Start anew. Learn from it and don't allow it to happen again. Let sleeping dogs lie and quit igniting the fire.

It's completely mind boggling that some of you think that removing these landmarks will ever cause the rift to change among some groups of people.

When i think of Robert E. Lee..my first thought is not slavery...it's he fought in the civil war for the rebels.





9/1/2017, 3:29 pm Link to this post PM msdulittle Blog
 


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