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Philer Profile
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

How about this scenario. This is an event I had read that circumstances change little, pretty much repeating a similar story. There is going to be a trial in WA. for manslaughter, a 13 y.o. boy who shot and killed his best buddy with his dads shotgun, playing around thinking it unloaded. The DA agrees it is an accident without intention but is charging the kid because HE was reckless. This is the 5th time I have seen this in WA. state, the kid is in orange, handcuffed, sitting next to an attorney on trial, while the parent who left out the loaded gun is in the audience. To me if you can hire a hit man to murder someone the hit man gets 20 to life and you get life or the death penalty, why isn't the parent on trial who started the motion of injury or death?



The boy was charged because the DA cared enough about the victim of the shooting to charge him. Who was the victim? Presumably another male approximately his age. Also in this case the DA is most likely thinking that the 13 year old was old enough to know better than to accidentally shoot his friend and is holding him more responsible than the dad.

As for your hit man scenario, I never believed in giving the actual killer a lighter sentence than someone who hired him. That makes no sense.

12/10/2017, 6:42 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


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A lot will depend on who is the victim in an allegedly accidental shooting and whether it will even be considered to be an accident. If someone accidentally shoots a police officer I doubt that it would matter in the slightest that it was an accident.



although its not really a relevant point in the context of this discussion.


quote:

Perhaps but anyone being shot in such a public place by a stranger messing around with a gun would probably have been charged.



Mmmmm 'messing around' is a bit emotive and isnt really supported by evidence.

If it would help - I suspect it wouldnt - I could provide a list of cases where some one has been shot in a public place by some one 'messing around with a gun' and wasnt charged.

It really isnt so rare


quote:

If a young woman accidentally shoots her boyfriend there will not be quite so much tolerance for that. She won't be believed just because she claims it was an accident.


Im not sure that that is the case - in a case very like that of Oskar Pretorious Tiffany Segule was in bed when she heard unexpected noises shooting through her bedroom door she shot her husband in the chest he was bringing her breakfast in bed - no charges

Jessica Utz shot her husband at the dinner table at the time the police said that she 'might' face charges but I cant find any thing that says that she was charged

Makanzie Halinski shot her boyfriend forehead, killing him and was sentenced to 7 years - she claimed that she thought the gun was not loaded


quote:

I agree but jail time is almost always related to whether a jury cared enough about a victim to see to it that someone gets jail time.



very often the jury has nothing to do with it - it doesnt get to go before a jury

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12/10/2017, 7:19 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

Mary Beth Harshbarger, a Pennsylvania woman who shot and killed her husband during a 2006 hunting trip in central Newfoundland, was found not guilty Friday of criminal negligence causing death.

Harshbarger, 45, who has always claimed she mistook Mark Harshbarger, 42, for a black bear




If she cant tell her husband from a black bear should she be hunting?

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12/10/2017, 7:45 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

katie5445 wrote:

How about this scenario. This is an event I had read that circumstances change little, pretty much repeating a similar story. There is going to be a trial in WA. for manslaughter, a 13 y.o. boy who shot and killed his best buddy with his dads shotgun, playing around thinking it unloaded. The DA agrees it is an accident without intention but is charging the kid because HE was reckless. This is the 5th time I have seen this in WA. state, the kid is in orange, handcuffed, sitting next to an attorney on trial, while the parent who left out the loaded gun is in the audience. To me if you can hire a hit man to murder someone the hit man gets 20 to life and you get life or the death penalty, why isn't the parent on trial who started the motion of injury or death?



The boy was charged because the DA cared enough about the victim of the shooting to charge him. Who was the victim? Presumably another male approximately his age. Also in this case the DA is most likely thinking that the 13 year old was old enough to know better than to accidentally shoot his friend and is holding him more responsible than the dad.

As for your hit man scenario, I never believed in giving the actual killer a lighter sentence than someone who hired him. That makes no sense.




The kid that died was his best buddy, they were both fooling around with the gun and the father got zero charges. I wouldn't hold a 13 y.o. responsible in this case but the dad would be in jail, maybe it'd teach these parents not to leave out a loaded weapon if he had several years in jail and by no means do I think this is taking gun laws "seriously" if the right person isn't punished, since this is the 5th case in a few years, I'd say the message isn't being received by adults.
12/10/2017, 8:05 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


By the way the parents of the victim, fought against the DA and supported the kid, does that mean the DA cares and the parents don't?
12/10/2017, 8:12 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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although its not really a relevant point in the context of this discussion.-mais



Except for the fact that it points to one of the main problems in our jury system. Bias.

People can't "accidentally" shoot police officers and get away with it because this society cares too much about police officers to allow them to do that. That concern and bias would be demonstrated by most juries even when a real accidental shooting of a cop took place.

My view is that the same concern should be shown for the average citizen who doesn't carry a badge. Accidental shootings should be taken much more seriously than they are.

quote:

Mmmmm 'messing around' is a bit emotive and isnt really supported by evidence.

If it would help - I suspect it wouldnt - I could provide a list of cases where some one has been shot in a public place by some one 'messing around with a gun' and wasnt charged.

It really isnt so rare



Not rare enough. I wouldn't mind looking at any cases you'd like to list.

quote:

Im not sure that that is the case - in a case very like that of Oskar Pretorious Tiffany Segule was in bed when she heard unexpected noises shooting through her bedroom door she shot her husband in the chest he was bringing her breakfast in bed - no charges

Jessica Utz shot her husband at the dinner table at the time the police said that she 'might' face charges but I cant find any thing that says that she was charged

Makanzie Halinski shot her boyfriend forehead, killing him and was sentenced to 7 years - she claimed that she thought the gun was not loaded



This Missouri case is more typical. A young white woman was found guilty of first degree murder even though she claimed the shooting was an accident. She was also given a life sentence with no parole.

Even assuming that the shooting wasn't accidental with little evidence indicating that it wasn't, why wasn't she convicted of second degree murder? What evidence was there of premeditation? It sounds like a spur of the moment shooting to me.

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/31932449/hayti-woman-found-guilty-of-shooting-killing-boyfriend-sentenced
12/10/2017, 8:31 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
Philer Profile
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

katie5445 wrote:

How about this scenario. This is an event I had read that circumstances change little, pretty much repeating a similar story. There is going to be a trial in WA. for manslaughter, a 13 y.o. boy who shot and killed his best buddy with his dads shotgun, playing around thinking it unloaded. The DA agrees it is an accident without intention but is charging the kid because HE was reckless. This is the 5th time I have seen this in WA. state, the kid is in orange, handcuffed, sitting next to an attorney on trial, while the parent who left out the loaded gun is in the audience. To me if you can hire a hit man to murder someone the hit man gets 20 to life and you get life or the death penalty, why isn't the parent on trial who started the motion of injury or death?



The boy was charged because the DA cared enough about the victim of the shooting to charge him. Who was the victim? Presumably another male approximately his age. Also in this case the DA is most likely thinking that the 13 year old was old enough to know better than to accidentally shoot his friend and is holding him more responsible than the dad.

As for your hit man scenario, I never believed in giving the actual killer a lighter sentence than someone who hired him. That makes no sense.




The kid that died was his best buddy, they were both fooling around with the gun and the father got zero charges. I wouldn't hold a 13 y.o. responsible in this case but the dad would be in jail, maybe it'd teach these parents not to leave out a loaded weapon if he had several years in jail and by no means do I think this is taking gun laws "seriously" if the right person isn't punished, since this is the 5th case in a few years, I'd say the message isn't being received by adults.



Why wouldn't you hold a thirteen year old responsible for shooting someone? It's not like they are completely brainless.

I also have no big problem with going after parents who negligently leave guns lying around where kids can get them but who do you charge? The father, the mother or both of them? And what punishment do you inflict?

My parents unintentionally allowed me access to a gun when I was a toddler and neither of them really deserved to be sent to prison. After I picked up the gun and pointed it at them without firing it my mom saw to it that I didn't get access to one again by getting them out of the house.
12/10/2017, 8:40 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
Philer Profile
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


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katie5445 wrote:

By the way the parents of the victim, fought against the DA and supported the kid, does that mean the DA cares and the parents don't?



They certainly cared a lot more about the shooter than the DA did.

They apparently cared about as much for him as they did their own son. The DA did not. He was more interested in justice for the victim.
12/10/2017, 8:45 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


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Why wouldn't you hold a thirteen year old responsible for shooting someone? It's not like they are completely brainless.



completely brainless no (although in my experience most 13 yearold boys are almost completely brainless)

But when a 13 year old is playing with his fathers loaded gun and someone gets shot I would hold the father at least 80% at fault

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12/10/2017, 8:58 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Persons aren't always charged in an accident, sometimes it is an accident depending what happened and who was involved. The father I would have put him in jail for years, the kid would get counseling and monitoring. I have read several swimming pool drownings of children over the years with kids and no one held responsible it was called an accident. The parents didn't see it as justice for the kid, they said it would be the last thing their son would want to happen to his life long friend.
12/11/2017, 12:14 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 


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