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Rigby5 Profile
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

mais oui wrote:

But the point is there was no legal basis for preventing any of these sales.


actually there was,

Alexis should have been prosecuted for his prior gun related incidents - he wasnt

Kelley had prior convictions but lied about them (as criminals are inclined to do) and the Air Force failed in their duty to report his convictions to the FBI (ATF)


Roof had prior disqualifying arrests but for some reason the FBI(ATF) hadnt recorded them


As for your claim that "Receiving psychiatric treatment is not and can not be in itself sufficient to deny inherent rights like for self defense"

Federal law 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), applies

OR (for example - Im not going to list all the states - you can look them up if you wish)

 

Ala. Code 1975 § 13A-11-72.
No person of unsound mind shall own a firearm or have one in his or her possession or under his or her control.


Ariz. Rev. Stat. §§ 13-3101; 13-3102.
Arizona prohibits possession of a firearm by any person who: Has been found to constitute a danger to himself or herself or others pursuant to court order under § 36-540, and whose right to possess a firearm has not been restored pursuant to § 13-925.


Ark. Code § 5-73-103.
No person shall possess or own any firearm who has been … adjudicated mentally ill or committed involuntarily to any mental institution.



 

Haw. Rev. Stat. § 134-7.

No person shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor, unless the person has been medically documented to be no longer adversely affected by the addiction, abuse, dependence, mental disease, disorder, or defect if the person:

Is or has been under treatment or counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon any dangerous, harmful, or detrimental drug, intoxicating compound or intoxicating liquor;

Has been acquitted of a crime on the grounds of mental disease, disorder, or defect; or Is or has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association or for treatment for organic brain syndromes.




Yes, I agree the US gun laws already are incredibly draconian and illegal because they are in violation of the constitution and guaranteed inherent individual rights.
So what is you point?
12/23/2018, 7:34 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

Unfortunately far too many criminals have bought guns legally, including some mass murderers




Unfortunately far too many criminals have bought guns legally, including MOST mass murderers

THOUSAND OAKS SHOOTING legally bought weapons - the shooter could have been banned but wasnt

PARKLAND SHOOTING - legally bought weapons

SUTHERLAND SPRINGS - legally bought weapons even though he should have been banned - he wasnt

LAS VEGAS SHOOTING legally bought weapons

ORLANDO SHOOTING legally bought weapons

SAN BERNARDINO SHOOTING legally bought weapons

ROSEBURG SHOOTING legally bought weapons

CHARLESTON SHOOTING legally bought weapons Roof should have been banned but wasnt

WASHINGTON NAVAL YARD SHOOTING legally bought weapons Alexis could have been banned but wasnt

SANDYHOOK legally bought weapons

AURORA SHOOTING legally bought weapons Holmes was receiving psychiatric treatment and could have been banned but wasnt



Perhaps of all those cases the Naval Yard shooter stands out the most. A mentally questionable guy who had shot the tires of his neighbor and shot into another neighbors apartment should not have been able to legally possess a weapon. Too bad they didn't discover that he had a pound of marijuana in his apartment. They would have taken that seriously and probably taken his guns away from him. That could have easily saved twelve lives at the Naval Yard.




No, they should not have been living independently,
They would be just as dangerous with a car and road rage, a chain saw, blades, gasoline, etc., as they would with a firearm.
There is no way any gun control law could possibly have done any good.
12/23/2018, 7:37 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Sure you could have prevented a few mass murders if there was much stricter federal draconian weapons laws, but it would not at all be worth it. Legally the federal government is not supposed to have ANY weapons jurisdiction at all, except maybe a little over importation. The whole idea of any federal weapons laws at all is so completely contradictory to a democratic republic, that any small good would be completely overwhelmed by the massive harm it would do. It is easy to show how the feds are completely wrong to conduct any weapons control. You just have to look at the murders committed by the federal government. It is not just the Branch Davidians in Waco and the wife murdered at Ruby Ridge, but the wholesale violation of human rights by the federal government in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo, renditions, etc.-Rigby



Just preventing one mass murder can be extremely important. That one mass shooter in Las Vegas killed 58 people, two thirds of them women! Preventing horrible mass tragedies like that is worth some significant and effective gun control.

As for our government being destructive, I agree that it has been but it's tolerance for mass murder by not restricting guns enough is just another example of it doing something wrong. A government that cared enough about protecting innocent lives would not be so casual about restricting and regulating guns as well as so cavalier about invading and killing people in other countries. If you want the government to stop killing innocent people in other countries you're probably going to have to live with a government that also regulates guns enough to stop that from happening so much in this country.

A government that cares about innocent lives in other countries will also care about them in this country enough to do something to prevent so much mass murder. And that will mean stricter gun control than what currently is enforced.



No its not at all worth while to try to save a single life from a mass shooting.
That is because it is impossible.
Not only could Paddock have easily gotten illegal weapons, but he could have afforded to make them from scratch even. Plus there is no way to have guessed he was going to be a risk, so the only way to legislate something for him, would harm hundreds of millions of people, stop millions of honest people from preventing crime, violating all aspects of a republic, and ensuring a dictatorship.
12/23/2018, 7:41 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Clearly there would be far less crime, fewer murders, and a much more honest and legal government is EVERYONE were armed.-Rigby



That's not obvious. Guns easily facilitate crimes like armed robbery and shooting people based on grudges and out of anger. They are a means to control people who otherwise might be able to defend themselves. And even if the criminal knows someone has a gun that won't necessarily keep him from using his own gun. Some very well-armed cops have been shot and killed.

Also, keep in mind that murder isn't the only thing that a civilized society wants to prevent. It would also like to prevent things like the accidental shooting of children. Guns in your home don't protect your kids when people are shooting into your home and killing your kids while they are sleeping.

quote:

It does not matter if the criminals then are armed or not, because they would then not have an advantage. The goal should NEVER be to try to disarm criminals, because that is totally and completely impossible anyway.



It may be difficult but it's not completely impossible. It certainly is possible to make it harder for them to get guns and some criminals are lazy. If they can't get one legally they won't be getting one. Others who have illegal ones can be prosecuted for having them which will keep them from using them to harm anyone.






That makes no sense at all.
Sure guns and other weapons can be used to cause harm, but in general they do hundreds of times more good than possible harm.
And NO, you can not possibly make is harder for those intent on crimes to get weapons. And in fact, all more regulations do is increase the illegal gun traffic because it makes it more profitable.
No one can tell if a person has an illegal gun.
In no way does more gun laws make it easier to determine who has a gun, if it is illegal, or what they intend to use it for.
It is total nonsense to claim any gun law could ever do any good.
If laws like that worked, then there would not be any illegal drugs in this country.
Clearly the opposite is true, and these abusive and intrusive laws increase use because people resent these inappropriate laws.
I know that gun control laws make me furious and want to kill.
That is how many people feel.

Again, there is not a single basis in law for any federal gun law at all. Any federal gun law is an absolute and total crime.
All crimes should be punished, but crimes from by the government should result in total annihilation of all those responsible. It is worse than treason.
12/23/2018, 7:49 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

...

What "inherent" rights are those in other countries? Did I miss other countries that for centuries dont' abvide by the US Constition and like the Uk have around of gun deaths 30 to 60 a year and thst is a problem, why?? Firearm control is not needed, I guess if you eant to be on a list of 3rd world countries




That makes no sense at all.
The US Constitution does not create a single right and is not at all supposed to be the source of any rights.
The founders of the US all agreed that all individuals have inherent rights, and that they should try to create a constitution that reflected the protections those inherent rights deserved.

Deaths are never caused by guns, and other countries with draconian gun laws do not have lower death rates because of that. If they have a lower death rate at all, it is because they have less injustice, poverty, lack of opportunity, and other known causes of crime.

To claim weapons access is a cause of crime, is just insane, foolish, and deliberately deceptive.

Obviously any country that attempts to disarm its general population, does not trust the general population, is not a republic, and is a 3rd world nation. The only reason that might appear to include the UK is only because the current government wishes to appear benevolent. In reality, the government of the UK is totally a 3rd world dictatorship.
12/23/2018, 7:57 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Yobbo wrote:

Accepting America's mad obsession with gun ownership we should also note the mad obession wirh shooting people too.

Until that is addressed, you will stay among third world nations for gun deaths.




We need a whole lot more deaths in the US before we can even get close to being a truly civilized country. Any country with gun control is just a tinpot dictatorship.
12/23/2018, 7:59 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Yobbo wrote:

Accepting America's mad obsession with gun ownership we should also note the mad obession wirh shooting people too.

Until that is addressed, you will stay among third world nations for gun deaths.



A lot of things contribute to that. Just the notion that angry people can lose control of themselves that has been promoted so much by the mass media has contributed to the problem of people shooting people. Americans get angry a lot, like people in other countries. But when you couple that anger with a gun plus the notion that an angry person is out of control and may do something they don't really want to do people can easily be shot. People who have made someone angry. Someone who has a gun.

What matters is that the angry person with a gun can believe that he has been driven to commit violence. That doesn't have to actually be true.

It's not conducive to having a civilized society to have a mass media promoting violence and then supply every dumbass in the country with a gun.



That makes no sense for gun control, but against gun control.
The most violent and dangerous people who are likely to commit violence are in the government, like police and military, so then they are the ones who we should disarm.
So then to prevent violence from those who are spoiled and angry, clearly it is the better people who all should be armed, so that they can defend against the spoiled and angry.

Gun control does the exact opposite, and disarms the good while ensuring the most damage from the spoiled and angry.
12/23/2018, 8:02 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


g

Last edited by mais oui, 12/23/2018, 8:09 pm


---
HAPPINESS, THE IGNOBLE LIFE GOAL OF THE ILLITERATE
12/23/2018, 8:07 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


The measure of civilization is not how much you eliminate crime by force, but how well you have eliminated the need for coercive laws at all.
12/24/2018, 1:29 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


To understand how incredibly stupid gun control is, look at what other death rates we accept without blinking.

{...
Alcohol misuse accounted for 35,823 deaths in 2017, an increase of nearly 46 percent over almost two decades, according to a Washington Examiner analysis of mortality data.
...}
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/healthcare/alcohol-deaths-climbing-men-twice-as-likely-to-die

The death rate from firearms is less, at around 30k, but since half of that are suicides, the actually concern is over about 12k shootings only, compared to about 36k killed from alcohol. In fact, the traffic death toll is also over 30k.

But the parallels with alcohol should be obvious. The reason we do nothing about those 36k alcohol deaths, is that attempting to legislation prohibition of alcohol greatly increased the death rate, no decrease it. Which is ALWAYS the case if government attempts to ever regulate anything which does not harm others, and government has no legal authority to regulate. Clearly government has ZERO authority to regulate what people need in order to defend themselves, so gun control can ONLY increase deaths, while totally invalidating any remote pretense of a republic.
12/24/2018, 4:16 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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