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katie5445 Profile
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


You can't avoid the issue of nurture which coincides with nature. A problem or a boon, dependent on several factors
1/19/2019, 10:08 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

You can't avoid the issue of nurture which coincides with nature. A problem or a boon, dependent on several factors



Of course nurture has effect.
But the point is that the individual is only responsible for nature, and that can't be the source of the problems. It can only be nurture, which then means it is someone else who is at fault for screwing up the individual when they were vulnerable to being conditioned.

And when you have mass problems, like school shootings, high suicides, high divorce rates, etc. then clearly the problem is institutionalized social mechanisms and traditions that are at fault. For example, are schools too competitive, boring, under funded, teachers poorly trained, taking over too much family responsibility, etc.? Or it is constant media? It could even be anti depressant drugs, which no only make individuals more complacent about committing murder, but getting into the water table.

The one thing it can not possibly be is technology like firearms.

1/19/2019, 5:31 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Using a firearm never makes one more powerful, you have got to be !@#$ me.



A stick of dynamite has far more energy than a firearm. Anyone can easily obtain dynamite, just by signing for it. Explosives are also easy to make. Does dynamite make people feel more powerful because the dynamite is more powerful? Are they more tempted? Of course not. That is because when an item is more powerful, that also causes it to become more of an object of fear. You have to be more careful as to its storage, use, and consequences. As the power is greater, so then are the risks, so it does NOT engender a sense of power, but of dred.
The only time it would not simply add more concern, is when one no longer cares, has gone beyond their endurance, has broken, and wants to simply end it all.
And if you notice, almost all these shootings were also suicides.
So then clearly there was absolutely NO sense of power involved at all, but of total defeat, giving up, and surrender.
1/19/2019, 5:39 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

The element of surprise is irrelevant because you gain nothing from shooting police except to be rid of the fear they were producing. So if people want to shoot police, then clearly that is the fault of the police who have made themselves the source of fear. The only times I have ever seen guns corrupt people by them feeling a sense of power from guns has been the government when it has a monopoly on guns. Guns should not be monopolized by anyone, in which case they only equalize, not embolden a sense of power. That has always been true. All societies have always had weapons, and it never caused a problem. It is only when you try to take away weapons that there is the corruption from the imbalance of power.-Rigby



Regardless of the motive the element of surprise still provides someone with a gun a lot of power over other people. They can even shoot them from a great distance away and into peoples' homes when they have a grudge against them or some other agenda. Obviously that involves the use of power over other people who even if armed are at a distinct disadvantage.

quote:

With Islam, I tend to agree with Muslims that all other religions really are corrupt. No one can claim Christianity isn't totally corrupt when it was doing Crusades, Conquistadors, inquisitions, etc. And even later, the British, French, and US have constantly been taking over the Mideast with imperialism and colonialism. The Muslims are likely the least corrupt in the world, except maybe the Buddhists.



Islam has to be corrupting because it requires too much irrational thinking on the part of its followers. Even it was slightly less corrupt than some other religions it would still be a very powerful corrupting influence in the world.

quote:

Sure many wars are corrupt or fake ideology, but that does not mean they all were. For example the American Revolution does not appear to be corrupt to me, even though it was mostly over money/taxes.



Wasn't it a war of egotistical slave owners roping British settlers into turning against their government so that they could run this country themselves? And even if their cause was fighting tyranny and only that the war was not necessary. That tyranny was not going to last and would eventually, even by the 1830s, evolve into a government essentially as benign as the American government, if not one which was more benign. It ended slavery sooner in its colonies than this country did.
1/20/2019, 8:35 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

I don't disagree on your reasons and I can add several but at the end of the day, most of us don't murder persons out of poverty, injustice or lack of opportunity, if that was true we'd all know at least several murderers.-katie



I agree. People don't commit murder out of poverty or lack of opportunity and seldom do so due to some sort of gross injustice. The main reasons are things I've talked about including having a sense that you are better than your victim. Prima Donnas and other criminals may feel victimized but often their victimization is more in their mind than in reality. Lots of people who have been real victims and treated very badly by others as well as ones who don't have money or much of anything else don't resort to violence against other people.



Wrong.
The ONLY reasons people commit crime are things like poverty, injustice, lack of opportunity, etc.
To believe otherwise is to deny the democratic republic, and instead support the monarchy or oligarchy of those claiming inherent superiority or racism.
Those exceptions who have been conditioned into passivity to injustice does not at all imply injustice is not a valid reason for violence.




A self-absorbed nitwit who murders a family because his girlfriend asked him to leave did not commit a crime due to poverty, injustice or lack of opportunity. He did it because he has a very high opinion of himself and his desires while having little to no respect for his victims. He may also buy into that losing control bullshit and use that as a partial excuse in his own mind for committing such a stupid crime.

Violent crime results from a lack of regard for victims and most of the time those victims are not bad people at all. They aren't guilty of depriving people of money or committing acts of injustice.



I doubt it.
I would bet the person was capable of being a warm and useful person, but nurture slowly turned him into an uncaring person.
I remember the competitive condition very well from when I was in school. It is very dehumanizing and degrading.
Humans are born to be explorers, inventors, hunters, warriors, etc., and modern society wants shoe salesmen.



Of course the way they are raised plays a role in turning them into uncaring persons. But they do care about at least one person - themselves.

That is one of the main things I've talked about in discussing how these mass shooters are generated. Parents condition them to be way too wound up in themselves while not caring much about other people. They put themselves and what they want first which is what most criminals do.

The problem with schools for some of these characters is the fact that schools don't coddle them like their parents did. They are places where they are not regarded as something special and wonderful where they can do no wrong. It can be quite a disappointment to them to find out that the outside world doesn't recognize their imaginary greatness.

The contrast between the two environments can help to generate problems at schools including acts of mass violence as we've seen.


1/21/2019, 12:07 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

The element of surprise is irrelevant because you gain nothing from shooting police except to be rid of the fear they were producing. So if people want to shoot police, then clearly that is the fault of the police who have made themselves the source of fear. The only times I have ever seen guns corrupt people by them feeling a sense of power from guns has been the government when it has a monopoly on guns. Guns should not be monopolized by anyone, in which case they only equalize, not embolden a sense of power. That has always been true. All societies have always had weapons, and it never caused a problem. It is only when you try to take away weapons that there is the corruption from the imbalance of power.-Rigby



Regardless of the motive the element of surprise still provides someone with a gun a lot of power over other people. They can even shoot them from a great distance away and into peoples' homes when they have a grudge against them or some other agenda. Obviously that involves the use of power over other people who even if armed are at a distinct disadvantage.

quote:

With Islam, I tend to agree with Muslims that all other religions really are corrupt. No one can claim Christianity isn't totally corrupt when it was doing Crusades, Conquistadors, inquisitions, etc. And even later, the British, French, and US have constantly been taking over the Mideast with imperialism and colonialism. The Muslims are likely the least corrupt in the world, except maybe the Buddhists.



Islam has to be corrupting because it requires too much irrational thinking on the part of its followers. Even it was slightly less corrupt than some other religions it would still be a very powerful corrupting influence in the world.

quote:

Sure many wars are corrupt or fake ideology, but that does not mean they all were. For example the American Revolution does not appear to be corrupt to me, even though it was mostly over money/taxes.



Wasn't it a war of egotistical slave owners roping British settlers into turning against their government so that they could run this country themselves? And even if their cause was fighting tyranny and only that the war was not necessary. That tyranny was not going to last and would eventually, even by the 1830s, evolve into a government essentially as benign as the American government, if not one which was more benign. It ended slavery sooner in its colonies than this country did.




Guns may slightly increase confidence, but not enough to be a problem. Surprise has huge risks involved. You firearm could jam, and they might accidentally be a large group in the ready.
And while a drive by shooting may seem safe, so would throwing a Molotov cocktail or something far more likely to succeed. There is nothing about guns that needs restriction. We don't want people to be more passive. The caveman could just club someone over the head with a rock. The means of society has to be value, not restrictions back by fear and intimidation. Gun control does not make society or people better, but far worse, by being far more coercive and unequal.

You need to learn something about Islam. It is not based on faith at all, but logic. The Quran is just practical advise, like running water is likely safer to drink than a stagnant pool. It is just adherents who don't understand that and think God is going to purify the water running out of a factory waste drain, that screw it up. Islam has nothing like virgin births, resurrection, turning water into wine, etc. There is no irrational thinking involved with Islam at all.

No, war that is to defend rights is good, while only war to diminish rights is bad. The Revolution was not just by slave holders, and there really is no choice when even if one waited 50 years, it is not clear the abuse by the Crown would ever have diminished. The British Crown considered colonies personal property instead of being part of England, so was inherently wrong. That would be intolerable for an hour, much less the half century you propose.
A war against something like any federal gun law is justified because since any federal gun law violates the constitution, then it shatters the covenant that protect any and all rights, pretty much ensuring dictatorship eventually. The constitution has to be in-volatile. If any portion of it can be ignored, then none of it retains any value at all, and then all abuses not only are possible, but assured eventually. That is especially true when the abuse removes any means of dissent, like gun control does. It places absolute monopolistic control in the hands of an already proven autocrat. Anyone who would not kill to stop that is a traitor.
1/21/2019, 5:55 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

I don't disagree on your reasons and I can add several but at the end of the day, most of us don't murder persons out of poverty, injustice or lack of opportunity, if that was true we'd all know at least several murderers.-katie



I agree. People don't commit murder out of poverty or lack of opportunity and seldom do so due to some sort of gross injustice. The main reasons are things I've talked about including having a sense that you are better than your victim. Prima Donnas and other criminals may feel victimized but often their victimization is more in their mind than in reality. Lots of people who have been real victims and treated very badly by others as well as ones who don't have money or much of anything else don't resort to violence against other people.



Wrong.
The ONLY reasons people commit crime are things like poverty, injustice, lack of opportunity, etc.
To believe otherwise is to deny the democratic republic, and instead support the monarchy or oligarchy of those claiming inherent superiority or racism.
Those exceptions who have been conditioned into passivity to injustice does not at all imply injustice is not a valid reason for violence.




A self-absorbed nitwit who murders a family because his girlfriend asked him to leave did not commit a crime due to poverty, injustice or lack of opportunity. He did it because he has a very high opinion of himself and his desires while having little to no respect for his victims. He may also buy into that losing control bullshit and use that as a partial excuse in his own mind for committing such a stupid crime.

Violent crime results from a lack of regard for victims and most of the time those victims are not bad people at all. They aren't guilty of depriving people of money or committing acts of injustice.



I doubt it.
I would bet the person was capable of being a warm and useful person, but nurture slowly turned him into an uncaring person.
I remember the competitive condition very well from when I was in school. It is very dehumanizing and degrading.
Humans are born to be explorers, inventors, hunters, warriors, etc., and modern society wants shoe salesmen.



Of course the way they are raised plays a role in turning them into uncaring persons. But they do care about at least one person - themselves.

That is one of the main things I've talked about in discussing how these mass shooters are generated. Parents condition them to be way too wound up in themselves while not caring much about other people. They put themselves and what they want first which is what most criminals do.

The problem with schools for some of these characters is the fact that schools don't coddle them like their parents did. They are places where they are not regarded as something special and wonderful where they can do no wrong. It can be quite a disappointment to them to find out that the outside world doesn't recognize their imaginary greatness.

The contrast between the two environments can help to generate problems at schools including acts of mass violence as we've seen.






I disagree. You think the schools are right to force children to learn that they may not be any smarter or better than anyone else. But I think schools deliberately try to make individuals feel like dirt, so that they will be humiliated into becoming complacent drones. Instead of stimulating or expanding the students imagination and abilities, schools grind them down with useless memorization and thoughtless mental pain.

But I do not think the humiliation and pain schools deliberately create are enough to motivate murder/suicide. I think that when the student expresses their aniety to parents, the parents mistakenly believe the doctors when they prescribe drugs like anti depressants. Anti-depressants really do make people no longer care about anything, including others or themselves, so then murder/suicide become far easier and likely. So I am blaming mostly Big-Pharma.


Last edited by Rigby5, 1/22/2019, 5:12 am
1/21/2019, 6:05 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Guns may slightly increase confidence, but not enough to be a problem.-Rigby



No way to prove it but it's a reasonable assumption that guns increase confidence enough among some criminals that they resort to crimes they wouldn't commit otherwise.

quote:

Surprise has huge risks involved. You firearm could jam, and they might accidentally be a large group in the ready.



Depends on the firearm. Some won't jam but regardless, any risk of using a firearm is obviously offset by the confidence they give users. That's why they keep being used for all sorts of purposes including to commit crimes.

quote:

You need to learn something about Islam. It is not based on faith at all, but logic. The Quran is just practical advise, like running water is likely safer to drink than a stagnant pool. It is just adherents who don't understand that and think God is going to purify the water running out of a factory waste drain, that screw it up. Islam has nothing like virgin births, resurrection, turning water into wine, etc. There is no irrational thinking involved with Islam at all.



The belief that the Quran is a message from Allah that everyone in the world needs to follow is one of the most irrational beliefs anyone in the world has. A belief that outright nonsensical has to corrupt folks who follow the religion. There is no way it couldn't corrupt them unless they simply don't believe it and do as you suggest, take the Quran as a book of advice supplied by a human being, not Allah.

The Muslims who commit violent terrorist acts are not in that category. No actual Muslim falls into that category and if he did, he'd quickly realize that as books of advice go, the Quran is not so hot.

quote:

No, war that is to defend rights is good, while only war to diminish rights is bad. The Revolution was not just by slave holders, and there really is no choice when even if one waited 50 years, it is not clear the abuse by the Crown would ever have diminished.



Good point but it would have diminished. And the founding fathers had to know that King George would likely be succeeded by someone less mentally ill. They also had to know that Britain wasn't really the enemy as much as simply an overbearing center of a much larger empire which for the most part was handled well. Canada was a pretty good example of that.

quote:

The British Crown considered colonies personal property instead of being part of England, so was inherently wrong. That would be intolerable for an hour, much less the half century you propose.



The American government could have negotiated for more independence without declaring war. This country would have survived and done quite well if that had happened just as Canada did and Australia, and New Zealand. It's our American conceit that we needed to break away from England when in reality we didn't need to.

1/22/2019, 11:13 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

I disagree. You think the schools are right to force children to learn that they may not be any smarter or better than anyone else. But I think schools deliberately try to make individuals feel like dirt, so that they will be humiliated into becoming complacent drones. Instead of stimulating or expanding the students imagination and abilities, schools grind them down with useless memorization and thoughtless mental pain.-Rigby



The schools I went to didn't do that. The worst thing about them other than some bullying from other students were a few ineffective teachers. You're simply recognized for your academic and athletic achievements. In my case more academic than athletic.

But they can be very unpleasant for Prima Donnas precisely because they don't fawn over them like their parents do. They are treated like any other student, not someone special who needs to be cherished and protected from any adversity.

quote:

But I do not think the humiliation and pain schools deliberately create are enough to motivate murder/suicide. I think that when the student expresses their aniety to parents, the parents mistakenly believe the doctors when they prescribe drugs like anti depressants. Anti-depressants really do make people no longer care about anything, including others or themselves, so then murder/suicide become far easier and likely. So I am blaming mostly Big-Pharma.



I also wonder about the effects of drugs on kids who in reality may not need them. It's probably Prima Donnas who are mostly receiving them when in reality what they have needed is more discipline and control at home.
1/22/2019, 11:27 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: "If guns kill people...."


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Guns may slightly increase confidence, but not enough to be a problem.-Rigby



No way to prove it but it's a reasonable assumption that guns increase confidence enough among some criminals that they resort to crimes they wouldn't commit otherwise.

quote:

Surprise has huge risks involved. You firearm could jam, and they might accidentally be a large group in the ready.



Depends on the firearm. Some won't jam but regardless, any risk of using a firearm is obviously offset by the confidence they give users. That's why they keep being used for all sorts of purposes including to commit crimes.

quote:

You need to learn something about Islam. It is not based on faith at all, but logic. The Quran is just practical advise, like running water is likely safer to drink than a stagnant pool. It is just adherents who don't understand that and think God is going to purify the water running out of a factory waste drain, that screw it up. Islam has nothing like virgin births, resurrection, turning water into wine, etc. There is no irrational thinking involved with Islam at all.



The belief that the Quran is a message from Allah that everyone in the world needs to follow is one of the most irrational beliefs anyone in the world has. A belief that outright nonsensical has to corrupt folks who follow the religion. There is no way it couldn't corrupt them unless they simply don't believe it and do as you suggest, take the Quran as a book of advice supplied by a human being, not Allah.

The Muslims who commit violent terrorist acts are not in that category. No actual Muslim falls into that category and if he did, he'd quickly realize that as books of advice go, the Quran is not so hot.

quote:

No, war that is to defend rights is good, while only war to diminish rights is bad. The Revolution was not just by slave holders, and there really is no choice when even if one waited 50 years, it is not clear the abuse by the Crown would ever have diminished.



Good point but it would have diminished. And the founding fathers had to know that King George would likely be succeeded by someone less mentally ill. They also had to know that Britain wasn't really the enemy as much as simply an overbearing center of a much larger empire which for the most part was handled well. Canada was a pretty good example of that.

quote:

The British Crown considered colonies personal property instead of being part of England, so was inherently wrong. That would be intolerable for an hour, much less the half century you propose.



The American government could have negotiated for more independence without declaring war. This country would have survived and done quite well if that had happened just as Canada did and Australia, and New Zealand. It's our American conceit that we needed to break away from England when in reality we didn't need to.




It is irrelevant if some criminals would not feel confident enough to commit some crimes if they were not armed, because they will always be armed. Criminals can get arms in Japan as easily as anywhere, is they are willing to pay enough for it.
There never can or will be any way to prevent criminals from getting guns, and no one has ever succeeded in trying that.

And no, the confidence that a firearm adds does not at all remotely equal of offset the negatives. It is not just that the gun might jam or the bullet be a dud, (which has happened twice to me). There are also the additional negatives, such as aim missing, the other person then be justified an killing you since you tried to shoot first, the horrendous increase in police and criminal penalties if you do accelerate to an armed crime, etc.

The Quran IS taken as just saying by Mohammad, and NOT Allah. The fact Mohammad does quote Allah is only over generalities that are not in question. Such as when Mohammad says you should give people a second chance before harming them, he quotes Allah as being forgiving. Which is not wrong or bad.

And no, any honest man who believes in justice SHOULD commit terrorism, because western imperialism and colonialism is that bad. No one should tolerate it for second. The problem is just how to do it without harming innocents?

And no, the British Crown is based corrupt principles, so needed to be rebelled against. While the government did greatly reform, it was abusing the Indians even after WWII. And if not for the 2 world wars, would have continued to be just as abusive, in my opinion. You can't bring up Canada as an illustration of fairness, because of the forced break up of the French Canadian population to Louisiana.

Last edited by Rigby5, 1/25/2019, 4:11 am
1/24/2019, 11:48 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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