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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

mais oui wrote:

In 2017, Honor Defense was called out by the gun community for making weapons that can fire when dropped. Now a police officer is suing the company after he was shot by his.

https://www.thetrace.org/2019/07/honor-defense-handgun-drop-fire-lawsuit/

 The woman arrested over the weekend after someone was shot at Shooters Casino and Sports Bar Saturday night told police a gun she had been carrying went off after she dropped it on the bathroom floor.
https://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/crime-and-courts/woman-says-gun-went-off-after-she-dropped-it-in/article_c5be89a4-10c4-59ee-9697-f5a74046aaad.html


The bullet that hit a 6-year-old boy Tuesday night apparently came from a gun that had been dropped, causing it to discharge,
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/dropped-gun-fires-a-shot-that-hits-boy-in-st/article_96fe8d94-124e-529e-94f3-5a7a52ba6a4c.html


Man claims he dropped his gun and fatally shot 21-year-old woman at North Side apartment
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Man-claims-he-dropped-his-gun-and-fatally-shot-13625365.php

An 18-year-old was shot at a South Carolina firing range when she dropped her gun

Read more here: https://www.thestate.com/news/state/south-carolina/article237783489.html#storylink=cpy


32-year-old Lincoln man on gun charges after he accidentally shot himself in the genitals.

https://journalstar.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-cite-lincoln-man-who-they-say-dropped-gun-shot/article_9d408bfb-5df3-5d98-8c23-4ec248775836.html


 when gun dropped from father's jacket and went off, hitting their 23-month-old son, ...

https://www.tribpub.com/gdpr/chicagotribune.com/


A prosecutor has been shot dead after a shotgun being exhibited as evidence dropped onto the floor and blasted her at point blank range

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7701747/Prosecutor-shot-dead-court-shotgun-used-evidence-dropped.html



"Nearly impossible it is for an accidental gun discharge" apparently




That is silly because for these cases, the gun had to have a round chambered intentionally, the hammer cocked intentionally, and the safety taken off intentionally.
So then clearly they are not at all accidental firings.
While I have never dropped a gun, I could drop guns an infinite number of times and never get a discharge.
The only way to get a discharge is through a series of intentional acts.
1/31/2020, 8:51 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

The numbers on sites vary from high to lower so I picked middle ground. 500-700 per year die of unintentional shootings. It gets worse with accidents, 2550 with 30% being under 25. 0-19 years of age 13,576 are injured. 1.69 million guns are loaded and unlocked in homes. You are 9x more likely to die in states from unintentional shootings in states with loose gun laws. None of this is the fault of the weapon, it is people who shouldn't own a weapon. It is the most irresponsible thing a gun owner can do is keep an unlocked load gun around youth and use the dumb excuse, they know not to touch it. I am going to assume Rigby will say, not bad numbers for 325 plus million but it ain't your kid, your parent, your partner, your friend and if injuries/deaths of loved ones can be prevented by doing the right thing, why not?



Over a million violent crime succeed every year.
That means many millions more are prevented through the use of fireams.
So which is better, 500-700 unintentional deaths a year from idiots, or millions more violent rapes, murders, thefts, home assaults, etc,?
And that does not even include the fact that a defenseless population is bound to soon become the thralls of a dictatorship.
1/31/2020, 8:55 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

The numbers on sites vary from high to lower so I picked middle ground.




I too looked but gave up due to the wide range of things listed as "unintentional shooting"

I suspect that the number of accidental (negligent) discharges is quite high but that most never get reported.

hard to get a number but it seems that there are an alarming number of people who shoot themselves (or someone else) whilst cleaning a gun



Since smokeless powder and noncorrosive civilian primers, it is not really good to clean a gun.
The most you should do is just oil it.
1/31/2020, 8:58 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

That is silly because for these cases, the gun had to have a round chambered intentionally, the hammer cocked intentionally, and the safety taken off intentionally.



obviously a round in the chamber a gun used for self defence is pretty much useless unless there is a round chambered and bear in mind that the bulk of this thread has been Derringers.

now lets look at the other point you made

hammer cocked - no
safety off - no

In 2017, Honor Defense was called out by the gun community for making weapons that can fire when dropped. Now a police officer is suing the company after he was shot by his.

https://www.thetrace.org/2019/07/honor-defense-handgun-drop-fire-lawsuit/



I suggest that if they only fired when the hammer was back and the safety off there wouldnt be a problem



quote:

Over a million violent crime succeed every year.
That means many millions more are prevented through the use of fireams.
So which is better, 500-700 unintentional deaths a year from idiots, or millions more violent rapes, murders, thefts, home assaults, etc,?
And that does not even include the fact that a defenseless population is bound to soon become the thralls of a dictatorship.



you cant even come close to substantiating any of those claims

they are basically the wet dream of John Lott

Guns (in private hands) are far more usually used in the oppression of people than the liberating of people

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1/31/2020, 10:48 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

That is silly because for these cases, the gun had to have a round chambered intentionally, the hammer cocked intentionally, and the safety taken off intentionally.



obviously a round in the chamber a gun used for self defence is pretty much useless unless there is a round chambered and bear in mind that the bulk of this thread has been Derringers.

now lets look at the other point you made

hammer cocked - no
safety off - no

In 2017, Honor Defense was called out by the gun community for making weapons that can fire when dropped. Now a police officer is suing the company after he was shot by his.

https://www.thetrace.org/2019/07/honor-defense-handgun-drop-fire-lawsuit/



I suggest that if they only fired when the hammer was back and the safety off there wouldnt be a problem



quote:

Over a million violent crime succeed every year.
That means many millions more are prevented through the use of fireams.
So which is better, 500-700 unintentional deaths a year from idiots, or millions more violent rapes, murders, thefts, home assaults, etc,?
And that does not even include the fact that a defenseless population is bound to soon become the thralls of a dictatorship.



you cant even come close to substantiating any of those claims

they are basically the wet dream of John Lott

Guns (in private hands) are far more usually used in the oppression of people than the liberating of people




I have never heard of Honor Defense gun maker, but there have been a few instances of Glock 17 pistols going off when dropped. They are hammerless and have no explicit safety, as they claim the autuomatic safety in trigger is sufficient.
Clearly it isn't.
Their lack of hammer and safety should be illegal in my opinion.
But derringers are not made that way, and all have an explicit hammer and half cock safety, that I know of.
So there is no derringer that can go off from being dropped, that I know of.
Back in the 1800s, the hammer rested directly on the primer, so all you had to do was rap the hammer and it would go off.
Since the turn of the century, all firing pins are free floating, so hitting the hammer does nothing.

As to the defensive use of firearms, it is not just Lott, but Kleck, Mustard, and many others. Even the DOJ substantiates at least 1 million violent crimes prevented by armed citizens.
And obviously this whole country owes everything to armed citizens being able to rebel from an abusive government.
And clearly we need many MORE guns in order to reduce things like rape.
{...
The FBI recorded 85,593 rapes in 2010. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported nearly 1.3 million incidents that year. It should however be noted that the CDC's definition of rape "represents the public health perspective" and takes into account the ability of the victim to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs while the FBI defines rape as "Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."
...}

And the exact figure is not relevant.
The point is that 500-700 irresponsible abuses is nothing compared to the deliberate harm caused against those who did not have any defense.
1/31/2020, 11:14 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


Ohio police are investigating the fatal shooting of a 2-year-old girl. The toddler's mother told authorities that she was handling a handgun on Friday night when it slipped from her hands and fired a bullet that struck the child in the chest, according to a statement.
"The safety was on when I dropped the gun and the bullet shot her," the mother said in a 911 call, obtained by WEWS-TV. "The gun dropped, I dropped my gun. She's gone. My baby's gone. She's not breathing at all. She's gone."

The mother was a registered gun owner and had a concealed carry permit,

https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-shot-killed-guns-897323



Americans Who Carry Concealed Weapons Keep Accidentally Shooting Themselves in Public Bathrooms

 an elementary school teacher in a Salt Lake City suburb unwittingly discharged her concealed weapon in the faculty bathroom. The bullet shattered a toilet, sending shards into her leg and her to the hospital.

an off-duty cop accidentally fired a round inside the restroom of a Target in Honolulu.

a veteran detective with New Jersey's Camden County Prosecutor's Office shot himself in the leg at his office's loo.

A man was walking to the bathroom in April in Attleboro, Massachusetts, when the gun in his pocket went off. The bullet hit him and then struck his wife in the foot,


man had to be carted away in an ambulance from an Italian restaurant in Kentucky when his concealed weapon punched a new hole in his body. Reports the News-Enterprise: "He set his pistol on the toilet paper dispenser while using the restroom and it slipped off and shot him in the leg,


customers at a Burger King in Manchester Township, Pennsylvania, were shocked by what sounded like a "cannon going off" in the men's room. The source, writes the York Dispatch, was a guy whose 9mm pistol discharged,


Father accidentally shoots himself, 9-year-old son while cleaning gun: report

A Roy man is recovering after being shot by a neighbor who was cleaning a gun he got for Christmas.

A 48-year-old man accidentally shot himself in the abdomen while cleaning his handgun Sunday afternoon, police said.


An upstate New York man who accidentally shot his wife to death while cleaning his gun has been sentenced to probation.


A suspect is in custody after shooting a man while cleaning his gun in Milwauke

Manitowoc police arrest man who says he accidentally fired gun; ... Whorley told police he fired the gun accidentally while cleaning it.

 A woman with a CCW permit was cleaning her gun inside her vehicle ... accidentally shoots her leg in Franklin.


two possible explanations,
1) guns can and do go off when dropped
2) there are a lot of people too stupid to have a gun which have a gun



BTW
''The general advice is to clean your gun barrels at the very least after each time you fire''
-https://guncleaninghq.com/gun-cleaning-tips/should-you-clean-your-gun-after-each-use/


''Owning a gun and not cleaning it is negligent, and could potentially ruin your weapon. I don’t mean to use scare tactics, but these are the facts. Even if you aren’t shooting much, not cleaning your weapon could harm it''
-https://www.dailyshooting.com/how-often-should-i-clean-my-gun/





---
HAPPINESS, THE IGNOBLE LIFE GOAL OF THE ILLITERATE
1/31/2020, 11:29 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Reply | Quote
Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

mais oui wrote:

Ohio police are investigating the fatal shooting of a 2-year-old girl. The toddler's mother told authorities that she was handling a handgun on Friday night when it slipped from her hands and fired a bullet that struck the child in the chest, according to a statement.
"The safety was on when I dropped the gun and the bullet shot her," the mother said in a 911 call, obtained by WEWS-TV. "The gun dropped, I dropped my gun. She's gone. My baby's gone. She's not breathing at all. She's gone."

The mother was a registered gun owner and had a concealed carry permit,

https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-shot-killed-guns-897323



Americans Who Carry Concealed Weapons Keep Accidentally Shooting Themselves in Public Bathrooms

 an elementary school teacher in a Salt Lake City suburb unwittingly discharged her concealed weapon in the faculty bathroom. The bullet shattered a toilet, sending shards into her leg and her to the hospital.

an off-duty cop accidentally fired a round inside the restroom of a Target in Honolulu.

a veteran detective with New Jersey's Camden County Prosecutor's Office shot himself in the leg at his office's loo.

A man was walking to the bathroom in April in Attleboro, Massachusetts, when the gun in his pocket went off. The bullet hit him and then struck his wife in the foot,


man had to be carted away in an ambulance from an Italian restaurant in Kentucky when his concealed weapon punched a new hole in his body. Reports the News-Enterprise: "He set his pistol on the toilet paper dispenser while using the restroom and it slipped off and shot him in the leg,


customers at a Burger King in Manchester Township, Pennsylvania, were shocked by what sounded like a "cannon going off" in the men's room. The source, writes the York Dispatch, was a guy whose 9mm pistol discharged,


Father accidentally shoots himself, 9-year-old son while cleaning gun: report

A Roy man is recovering after being shot by a neighbor who was cleaning a gun he got for Christmas.

A 48-year-old man accidentally shot himself in the abdomen while cleaning his handgun Sunday afternoon, police said.


An upstate New York man who accidentally shot his wife to death while cleaning his gun has been sentenced to probation.


A suspect is in custody after shooting a man while cleaning his gun in Milwauke

Manitowoc police arrest man who says he accidentally fired gun; ... Whorley told police he fired the gun accidentally while cleaning it.

 A woman with a CCW permit was cleaning her gun inside her vehicle ... accidentally shoots her leg in Franklin.


two possible explanations,
1) guns can and do go off when dropped
2) there are a lot of people too stupid to have a gun which have a gun



BTW
''The general advice is to clean your gun barrels at the very least after each time you fire''
-https://guncleaninghq.com/gun-cleaning-tips/should-you-clean-your-gun-after-each-use/


''Owning a gun and not cleaning it is negligent, and could potentially ruin your weapon. I don’t mean to use scare tactics, but these are the facts. Even if you aren’t shooting much, not cleaning your weapon could harm it''
-https://www.dailyshooting.com/how-often-should-i-clean-my-gun/






Again, those are not accidental shootings.
The chamber did not get loaded by itself, The hammer did not get cocked by itself. The safety was not taken off by itself.
And the odd designs without hammer or explicit safety is not that common or known to be very unreliable either.
It is impossible to have an accidental firing from the act of cleaning, since the first act of cleaning is to remove the magazine and any chambered round.
They are claiming they were cleaning as some sort of lame excuse.

And it is the military that pushes cleaning, based on the fact the military uses cheap corrosive primers that require immediate cleaning.
Here is a more common civilian suggestion:
{...
Frequency depends on how often you shoot, what ammo you shoot and your specific model. Some ammunition is dirtier than others and some handguns require more cleaning than others. You will find precision rifle shooters prefer a fouled barrel for greater accuracy and only clean when the groups begin to expand. Conversely, when I’m taking a high-round-count handgun class, you’ll find me cleaning and lubing my gun every night. I’ll also inspect key parts and ensure the pistol will perform well.

My plastic guns are cleaned far less frequently than my 1911s and revolvers. A complete inspection of my revolvers takes place once a year — at which point, I check out small parts like the hand and hammer stirrup pin.

With time you will learn what ammunition is dirtier (Winchester white box) and how often your specific gun needs to be thoroughly cleaned. Yes, most guns can run dirty. But they can be prone to failures and possibly even breakage if they get filthy enough. If you’re talking about your concealed carry or home-defense gun, the answer is simple: That gun should be lovingly maintained and lubed. You cannot afford a piece of grit causing a failure when you need it most.
...}
1/31/2020, 11:45 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

The chamber did not get loaded by itself, The hammer did not get cocked by itself. The safety was not taken off by itself



I have conceded that the chamber was loaded ( a derringer without loaded chambers is as useful as a rock) an no gun is much use if it is effectively unloaded when you need it

YOU havent shown that (despite the reports stating otherwise) the hammer was cocked and the safety was off..


Tactical life seem to be of the opinion that guns can and do go off when dropped FURTHERMORE they are of the opinion that Derringers are particularly liable to do so


"Derringer-type pistols with external hammers, for example. Old-fashioned revolvers that allow the hammer to be driven forward by impact on its rear portion, forcing the firing pin against an underlying primer with enough impact to discharge the cartridge. Many semi-automatic pistols, not just cheap or junky ones, do not have any sort of mechanical barrier in the mechanism that acts as a firing pin lock or block."


https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/dropped-gun-inertia-discharge/





---
HAPPINESS, THE IGNOBLE LIFE GOAL OF THE ILLITERATE
2/1/2020, 12:49 am Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

The chamber did not get loaded by itself, The hammer did not get cocked by itself. The safety was not taken off by itself



I have conceded that the chamber was loaded ( a derringer without loaded chambers is as useful as a rock) an no gun is much use if it is effectively unloaded when you need it

YOU havent shown that (despite the reports stating otherwise) the hammer was cocked and the safety was off..


Tactical life seem to be of the opinion that guns can and do go off when dropped FURTHERMORE they are of the opinion that Derringers are particularly liable to do so


"Derringer-type pistols with external hammers, for example. Old-fashioned revolvers that allow the hammer to be driven forward by impact on its rear portion, forcing the firing pin against an underlying primer with enough impact to discharge the cartridge. Many semi-automatic pistols, not just cheap or junky ones, do not have any sort of mechanical barrier in the mechanism that acts as a firing pin lock or block."


https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/dropped-gun-inertia-discharge/






No, derringers usually do not even have trigger guards, so always have a built in half-cock safety, It is trivial to use and undo, so there is never a reason to not use it.
But it can never go off if dropped, and none ever has.
It is a foolproof technology going back over 100 years.

Direct impingement hammers have been obsolete for over a century. That includes derringers. Instead, they all use floating inertial firing pins.
Here is an image of the old direct contract firing pin right on the hammer.
Image
Now the hammer never makes direct contact with the primer, and the firing pin is shorter than the distance, so it only ignites when it has the proper acceleration from actual hammer strike.

Image

For the last century, firing pins have been blocked or locked until the safety turned off. So it is only new and defective designs that have malfunctioned, until they have been detected and replaced. Derringers are not innovative so have never had this problem.
 

Last edited by Rigby5, 2/1/2020, 6:03 am
2/1/2020, 5:51 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: New Zealand vs the US in the matter of gun control


Here is a diagram of a derringer.
The firing pin that ignites the primer is part 7.
And you can see, it is too short to make contact, and held back with a spring, so that if hit hard and fast enough with the hammer, only then will it fly with enough force to cause ignition.

Image
2/1/2020, 6:12 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 


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