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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

We are seeing it in our own society, neighbor shooting neighbor over a squabble, road rage, people sucker punching other people, young people involved in horrible acts of violence for no reason. Cops dragging, hitting tossing young teenage girls. We have been in almost a perpetual war as a country with citizens who are in a perpetual war in their own country, how can we solve anyone's problems through violence when it isn't solving our own right here!



The existence of invalid violence, in no way invalidates all violence.
Obviously in all of the example you gave, it is was violence that ultimately resolved the situation.

That is the same illogical hypocrisy people say when they are against guns, and then pass legislation designed to have civilians peacefully possess guns, shot by the police, BATF, and federal forces, like at Waco and Ruby Ridge.
6/27/2017, 5:35 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


There was daily press and activity of one kind or another in the Bay Area. Was there no violence in the ME before or any of the countries we have invaded? Violence has been tried for centuries upon centuries and yet here we are still and worse not better! I can't imagine why you think it works, unless you are the person that has the ability of a dictator who creates more violence, then I guess it works for you personally, till they off you that is.
6/27/2017, 5:35 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Now I'm up to three, don't go to Rigbys house alone for dinner, don't let him babysit your kids and don't have a 'fight' as it must start with violence or a threat? Or maybe you just like to be smacked around? There are women who do that........... emoticon Violence perpetuates violence, lot's of times, starting right in your own home and spilling into society, or it is allowed by a govt. or a religion, which has shown NOT to be the answer.



Nonsense.
Government IS violence.
Every single law that is passed is not only a threat, but ensures more people will be beaten, arrested, or killed.
Sometimes that is necessary in order to reduce over all violence.
But anyone who thinks laws are nonviolent, is insane.
6/27/2017, 5:38 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


Actually Rigby you frighten me more than the govt.
6/27/2017, 5:46 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


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katie5445 wrote:

Actually Rigby you frighten me more than the govt.



If you prefer a corrupt government that murders US families over stupid gun laws and massacres foreign civilians over oil, that is your problem.
I have never killed anyone.
Can you say the same, with the policies you do support?
6/27/2017, 5:56 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


What in the world makes you think I've supported US policy and violence, war, invasion? You and those like you are the ones I meet on a daily basis, that is what is frightening, what you support/believe scares me in most areas.
6/27/2017, 6:05 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

What in the world makes you think I've supported US policy and violence, war, invasion? You and those like you are the ones I meet on a daily basis, that is what is frightening, what you support/believe scares me in most areas.



You have clearly stated you prefer and support the long term violence of the corrupt dictatorship over the short term violence of the idealistic rebellion, so then it is you, and people like you, who ARE the whole problem.

Last edited by Rigby5, 6/27/2017, 6:18 pm
6/27/2017, 6:18 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


You are joking or you don't read my posts. I don't support any violence/war unless our country or our lives are at stake. I didn't see being in VN or in the ME saving any lives. Genocide however is a different issue, which should be dealt with swiftly by the entire world against any country that commits it but that doesn't happen either. Look at the Kurdish genocide by Hussein, 1986-89 and we used it as an excuse to get rid of him in the 21st century, if there is going to be violence, he should have been whacked in 1986. There may be a time and place for violence/war but not how this world has been carrying on for centuries and if it works so well why is it continual? I'm no one's problem Rigby, I'm a peace lover and a peace maker.
6/27/2017, 6:56 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

You are joking or you don't read my posts. I don't support any violence/war unless our country or our lives are at stake. I didn't see being in VN or in the ME saving any lives. Genocide however is a different issue, which should be dealt with swiftly by the entire world against any country that commits it but that doesn't happen either. Look at the Kurdish genocide by Hussein, 1986-89 and we used it as an excuse to get rid of him in the 21st century, if there is going to be violence, he should have been whacked in 1986. There may be a time and place for violence/war but not how this world has been carrying on for centuries and if it works so well why is it continual? I'm no one's problem Rigby, I'm a peace lover and a peace maker.



Wrong again.
You DO support violence because you ensure long term evil violence by trying to degrade short term beneficial violence.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.", Edmond Burke

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.", Benjamin Franklin

And you are still parroting the long debunked claim that Saddam committed any massacres at all, much less attempted genocide.
Saddam should NEVER have been "whacked", and it is the evil US government that made up all those false claims.
You keep getting it backwards, so then you are part of the problem.
Here, once again, is the explanation as to why you are wrong about Saddam:
{...
US Army War College: NO PROOF SADDAM GASSED THE KURDS!

Memo to Jess Helms from InfoTimes. Note excerpt from US Army War College report that no evidence exists to support US claims that Iraq used gas on the Kurds.

I continue to make inquiry into the situation in Iraq, as it is likely to brew up into another crisis one of these days when the US Army War College has no choice but to conclude that Iraq is not hiding any weapons of mass destruction -- or if they are, they are so well hidden that nobody is going to find them. As you know, I'm sure, the warhawks in the United States will continue to insist that the embargo remain in place no matter what, and there will be assertions from around the world that we have not been acting in good faith. As you also know, I believe there are serious questions regarding our behavior toward Iraq that go back further. You would agree, I think, that at the very least our State Department gave a "green light" to Saddam Hussein to go into Kuwait in August 1990. The more I read of the events of the period, the more I believe history will record that the Gulf War was unnecessary, perhaps even that Saddam Hussein was willing to retreat back to his borders, but our government decided we preferred the war to the status quo ante.
In my previous correspondence with you on this matter, I had been in a quandary about the state of our relations with Baghdad during that critical period. In the months immediately preceding the "green light" given by our Ambassador, April Glaspie, a number of your Senate colleagues including Bob Dole had traveled to Baghdad, met with Saddam, and found him to be a head of state worthy of support. Even Sen. Howard Metzenbaum [D-OH], a Jewish liberal and staunch supporter of Israel, gave him a seal of approval. What disturbs me even now, Jesse, is that these meetings occurred after the Senate Foreign Relations committee had accused Iraq of using poison gas against its own people, i.e., the Kurds. Like all other Americans, in recent years I had assumed that what I read in the papers was true about Iraq gassing its own people. Once the war drums again began beating last November, I decided to read up on the history, and found Iraq denied having used gas against its own people. Furthermore, I heard that a Pentagon investigation at the time had also turned up no hard evidence of Saddam gassing his own people.

This is serious stuff, because the US Army War College tells us that 1.4 million Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the sanctions, which is 3,000 times more than the number of Kurds who supposedly died of gassing at the hands of Saddam. Many of my old Cold Warrior friends practically DEMAND that we not lift the sanctions because if Saddam would gas his own people, he would gas anyone. Now I have come across the 1990 Pentagon report, published just prior to the invasion of Kuwait. Its authors are Stephen C. Pelletiere, Douglas V. Johnson II and Leif R. Rosenberger, of the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. War College at Carlisle, Pennsylvania. The report is 93 pages, but I append here only the passages having to do with the aforementioned issue:

Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East
Excerpt, Chapter 5
U.S. SECURITY AND IRAQI POWER

Introduction. Throughout the war the United States practiced a fairly benign policy toward Iraq. Although initially disapproving of the invasion, Washington came slowly over to the side of Baghdad. Both wanted to restore the status quo ante to the Gulf and to reestablish the relative harmony that prevailed there before Khomeini began threatening the regional balance of power. Khomeini's revolutionary appeal was anathema to both Baghdad and Washington; hence they wanted to get rid of him. United by a common interest, Iraq and the United States restored diplomatic relations in 1984, and the United States began to actively assist Iraq in ending the fighting. It mounted Operation Staunch, an attempt to stem the flow of arms to Iran. It also increased its purchases of Iraqi oil while cutting back on Iranian oil purchases, and it urged its allies to do likewise. All this had the effect of repairing relations between the two countries, which had been at a very low ebb.

In September 1988, however -- a month after the war had ended -- the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq's relations with the Kurds. It is beyond the scope of this study to go deeply into this matter; suffice it to say that throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies -- Iran and the elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of this operation - according to the U.S. State Department -- gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds' human rights.

Having looked at all of the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

We would have expected, in a matter as serious as this, that the Congress would have exercised some care. However, passage of the sanctions measure through the Congress was unusually swift -- at least in the Senate where a unanimous vote was secured within 24 hours. Further, the proposed sanctions were quite draconian (and will be discussed in detail below). Fortunately for the future of Iraqi-U.S. ties, the sanctions measure failed to pass on a bureaucratic technicality (it was attached as a rider to a bill that died before adjournment).

It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of them Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.

Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action. As a result of the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq is now the most powerful state in the Persian Gulf, an area in which we have vital interests. To maintain an uninterrupted flow of oil from the Gulf to the West, we need to develop good working relations with all of the Gulf states, and particularly with Iraq, the strongest.
...}http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/helms.html


When things are fine, then nonviolence is fine. But when things are terrible, and evil people have taken control and are doing evil things, then being nonviolent is EVIL.


Last edited by Rigby5, 6/27/2017, 9:36 pm
6/27/2017, 8:30 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Martin Luther King realized the validity of violence


A real hero.

6/28/2017, 1:46 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 


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