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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


How does this
" The group has been based as they have for over 100 years" ... not allowing atheists
... reconcile with the Scout law:
 "To do my duty to ... my country" ?

... in a Nation with freedom of (and from) religion ?

Last edited by Geezess, 10/19/2017, 6:59 pm
10/19/2017, 6:56 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


Hinduism doesn't have an all powerful god.
10/19/2017, 7:05 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


And the Boy Scouts Program Association is STILL a private entity. Private as to rules and allowances.
10/19/2017, 9:24 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


So are they too big to fail ?
10/19/2017, 10:03 pm Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

And the Boy Scouts Program Association is STILL a private entity. Private as to rules and allowances.



In other words, they are legally allowed to discriminate. And fact is that has been upheld by the courts. Doesn't make it right. Just makes it legal.

The legal issue arises when the subject turns the use of public facilities (lands etc).

But cooter - I notice you're still avoiding the question I raised earlier. How would eliminating the reference to "God" in the oath eliminate everything that the scouts stand for?

 
10/20/2017, 10:41 am Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


Do not meet standards by design, not allowed into a private association. Can you arbitrarily join a engineering Association? A Physicians? Are they discriminating against you as you have not the 'qualifications'?

Make up as much crap as you can still a private ASSOCIATION and as such have their own rules.
10/20/2017, 11:44 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


True - and the courts have upheld their right to discriminate - as I said, that makes it legal. It doesn't make it right. And it doesn't mean it makes any sense - after all, the various discriminatory (and bigoted) rules of the past are gradually being eliminated as the BSA begins to realize that they're no longer operating in the 1920's (or even the 1950's).

Having said that, their right to discriminate still leaves the question of the use of government facilities (including lands) unanswered.

But you still haven't explained why eliminating the word "God" from the oath would destroy everything the scouting movement is based on.

And, as has been previously pointed out, any "religious person" that swore that oath without believing in the Christian god was lying.

And your example of an Engineering or Physicians' association isn't valid - anyone can join those organizations providing that they're willing to obtain the relevant professional qualification.

Those qualifications are within the individual's control. Things like sex, gender, sexual orientation and even religious beliefs are not.
10/20/2017, 12:35 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

quote:

But cooter - I notice you're still avoiding the question I raised earlier. How would eliminating the reference to "God" in the oath eliminate everything that the scouts stand for?



Still waiting.
10/22/2017, 1:00 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


And waiting.
10/24/2017, 11:55 am Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


To myself that took the Oath to heart, considered it a gracious action to attest my belief in A god and not JUST a Christian God. We hade as noted a Hindu, also a Jewish and a Greek Orthodox, all believe in their own way but in a REVERANT way and swore that same oath.

A Atheist believes as NOTED in NO God, he decides to Not state to God his or now her choice so demeans all those prior that did. The Scouts I knew is over, Explorer Scouts is already gone, 'Boy' Scouts is almost there so yes I believe elimination of the terminology removes the value to the organization.

My Opinion, you can believe whatever you wish but to make the world 'All open to ALL people regardless of any consideration to 'Appease' ALL is as worthless as it gets as does No One any value just is.
10/24/2017, 5:04 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


The oath says "God" - that's a name. And if they're not Christian and are swearing an oath to that God they're lying (or simply don't understand what the words mean).

But that still doesn't tell us how eliminating that phrase would demean everything the scouts stand for.

Unless you're claiming the BSA is a church. emoticon

And to repeat - the word "reverent" does not relate to believing in god (any god).

10/24/2017, 7:26 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


So how would eliminating the reference to God demean everything the BSA stands for?
10/26/2017, 3:14 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


Why do so many Americans believe in fairy stories?
10/29/2017, 1:14 am Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


Since cooter has run away I guess we'll never find out why he thinks removing the reference to god will destroy the Boy Scouts.

But since this thread started because the BSA decided to admit girls, this is well worth your time (both the NYT Daily and the Tweet)

Meet Elsa Moock, 10, who joined the Boy Scouts and has a lot to teach us about being brave -- and being ourselves. Listen to her on today's special kids episode of The Daily:

[sign in to see URL]

[sign in to see URL]

Comments on the tweet are generally very supportive - reading the few negative comments it appears that the majority of posters never listened to the entire article.
11/20/2017, 2:27 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

Since cooter has run away I guess we'll never find out why he thinks removing the reference to god will destroy the Boy Scouts.

But since this thread started because the BSA decided to admit girls, this is well worth your time (both the NYT Daily and the Tweet)

Meet Elsa Moock, 10, who joined the Boy Scouts and has a lot to teach us about being brave -- and being ourselves. Listen to her on today's special kids episode of The Daily:

[sign in to see URL]

[sign in to see URL]

Comments on the tweet are generally very supportive - reading the few negative comments it appears that the majority those of posters never listened to the entire article.



11/20/2017, 4:02 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

quote:

quote:

But cooter - I notice you're still avoiding the question I raised earlier. How would eliminating the reference to "God" in the oath eliminate everything that the scouts stand for?



Still waiting.



Now that you're back, we're still waiting.
12/28/2017, 7:28 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


And waiting
12/31/2017, 10:53 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


And waiting
1/2/2018, 11:36 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

To myself that took the Oath to heart, considered it a gracious action to attest my belief in A god and not JUST a Christian God. We hade as noted a Hindu, also a Jewish and a Greek Orthodox, all believe in their own way but in a REVERANT way and swore that same oath.

A Atheist believes as NOTED in NO God, he decides to Not state to God his or now her choice so demeans all those prior that did. The Scouts I knew is over, Explorer Scouts is already gone, 'Boy' Scouts is almost there so yes I believe elimination of the terminology removes the value to the organization.

My Opinion, you can believe whatever you wish but to make the world 'All open to ALL people regardless of any consideration to 'Appease' ALL is as worthless as it gets as does No One any value just is.



You are being petty and mean spirited, the list of qualities is long and the word "God" in that oath should not disqualify anyone who met the other characteristics, including being reverent. Matter of fact they ought to take it out. The Cubs & Boy Scouts is where children can find mentors and experience the outdoors and learn from those that are not teaching them so many different things. It can make a difference in a kids life who doesn't have home support and could be headed down the wrong path and with all your complaints about kids, you should encourage it for all.
1/3/2018, 1:57 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


I meant to add I think that is why Slenderman fit in so well with the one girls delusions and the stabbing. I would imagine they were quite vivid in her mind. One thing I learned working with these types of patients, there is no way you can make the type of delusions up they have, no one is 'home.' I remember my first encounters vividly, county hospital when they still had wards, I was 19 and horrified!
1/3/2018, 2:22 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


Rewriting the Oath, reduces the validity of the strength of the organization to those that have already been in it. Go right ahead and change it, makes little difference as entry levels are dissolving and the value of the Eagle Scout program are no longer taken to the values they once carried.

Is no longer and will not ever be the Boy Scouts as the majority of those that have been thru it will attest. I would not even consider sending a child into the slowly dying association at this juncture as so many of my colleagues consider at the same level.
1/5/2018, 1:09 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


How does rewriting the oath "reduce the validity" of the organization?

And what do you mean when you say that "entry levels are dissolving"? Is that a polite way of saying that the Scouts now accept people who don't look and believe like you do?

And I'd love to hear your explanation of why "the value of the Eagle Scout program are no longer taken to the values they once carried".

 
1/5/2018, 2:21 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


Discards one of the basis fundamental's of the organization, do that and start new or just close shop.
1/5/2018, 5:39 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

Discards one of the basis fundamental's of the organization, do that and start new or just close shop.



So the BSA is primarily a religious organization?

BTW, the scouting movement has already changed drastically from its origins. When Lord Baden-Powell first established the scouting movement he envisioned a paramilitary organization that was intended to prepare boys for military service (much like the Hitler Youth) - this was at a time when military service was associated with "manliness".

Baden-Powell himself "was a peculiar character: "He was a racist and an imperialist and a monarchist, all right, but most of the time to a temperate degree. ... He had charm and courage, and a knack with the young, and he could draw excellent freehand illustrations.""

If you want to be a traditionalist I suppose we could reposition the scouts to be the way that their founder envisioned

If Baden-Powell had had his way, the Boy Scouts might have formed close ties with the Hitler Youth. In 1937, he told the Scouts' international commissioner that the Nazis were "most anxious that the Scouts should come into closer touch with the youth movement in Germany." Baden-Powell met with the German ambassador in London and was invited to meet the Führer himself, though the war prevented him from visiting the Third Reich. But he continued to admire Hitler's values, writing in a 1939 diary entry that Mein Kampf was "a wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation etc."

]SOURCE

Or we could move into modern times and recognize that some of those "old fashioned values" are not only no longer valid but are simply wrong.
1/5/2018, 7:06 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

Discards one of the basis fundamental's of the organization, do that and start new or just close shop.



I assume you know that it was an Englishman who created the Boy Scouts but I bet you don't know the English have dropped "God" from the pledge, your duty now is not to God and Queen but the Queen only.
1/5/2018, 7:26 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

Discards one of the basis fundamental's of the organization, do that and start new or just close shop.



Refusing to accept atheists into the organization means that a very significant percentage of Americans would be ineligible for membership.

Recent studies have concluded that roughly a quarter of Americans are atheists and since young people (i.e., the age group that is eligible to join) are more likely to be atheists than older age groups, that's banning a lot of people.

And unless you believe that the primary purpose of the BSA is to serve as a religious organization, absolutely nothing is lost by eliminating an archaic requirement.

1/5/2018, 9:04 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

quote:

cooter50 wrote:

Discards one of the basis fundamental's of the organization, do that and start new or just close shop.



I assume you know that it was an Englishman who created the Boy Scouts but I bet you don't know the English have dropped "God" from the pledge, your duty now is not to God and Queen but the Queen only.



They pretty much had to since the majority of Brits are either atheist or agnostic.

[sign in to see URL]

1/6/2018, 7:05 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


Only 13% are atheists, overall it seemed to me they do believe in God, they are just to hung over and in bed to go to church or they are on the football pitch. emoticon
1/6/2018, 7:42 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


I suspect the real number is far higher than 13%.

While this article is actually about the US I'm sure the same holds true for the UK.

It is true that both Pew and Gallup conclude that roughly 10% of Americans are atheists (and 30% are "nones") there is a problem with their methodology. It’s always safe to say that self-reporting (especially if there are real or perceived negative consequences to admitting to something) will always under report. The question here is “by how much?”

These authors employ a different method that's intended to correct for that

[sign in to see URL]
 
You can click thru to the actual paper and you’ll find this
 
file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/how%20many%20atheists-%[sign in to see URL]

quote:

We used the unmatched count technique and Bayesian estimation to indirectly estimate atheist prevalence in two nationally representative samples of 2000 U.S. adults apiece. Widely-cited telephone polls (e.g., Gallup, Pew) suggest USA atheist prevalence of only 3-11%. In contrast, our most credible indirect estimate is 26% (albeit with considerable estimate and method uncertainty). Our data and model predict that atheist prevalence exceeds 11% with greater than .99 probability, and exceeds 20% with roughly .8 probability. Prevalence estimates of 11% were even less credible than estimates of 40%, and all intermediate estimates were more credible. Some popular theoretical approaches to religious cognition may require heavy revision to accommodate actual levels of religious disbelief
 
Emphasis is mine



That's math speak for "our best estimate is that 26% of Americans are atheists but, if we're wrong, the answer is more likely to be 40% than 11%"

I expect that the UK won't be that much different (other than the fact that being an atheist there has fewer negative connotations than it does in the US)
1/6/2018, 9:21 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Time moves on, end of delineation


I started going there in the mid 80's and I can't recall one conversation about atheism. I didn't know anyone's religion/faith unless they stated it and that was rare. Talks on religion were during the "troubles" and from my point of view in England, which no doubt is far different than those in N.I., it seemed more political and economical than religious at least in 90's.
1/6/2018, 10:29 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 


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