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mais oui Profile
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


I KNOW I have posted it before but I love the story and it demonstrates the attitude to being dumb with a gun.

A man shot a 9 yearold girl in a Halloween costume because he thought she was a skunk! despite the girl receiving extensive injuries he was only charged with misdemeanor assault!

there have been two cases in recent weeks of hunters shooting after dusk (illegally in one case)and mistaking people out walking dogs for deer in neither case does prosecution seem likely - although its too early to tell - there will definitely however be a prosecution for the hunting violation!

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12/11/2017, 12:21 am Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

mais oui wrote:

quote:

Why wouldn't you hold a thirteen year old responsible for shooting someone? It's not like they are completely brainless.



completely brainless no (although in my experience most 13 yearold boys are almost completely brainless)

But when a 13 year old is playing with his fathers loaded gun and someone gets shot I would hold the father at least 80% at fault



I wouldn't. I consider the 13 year old to be a little too old for him not to have the primary responsibility for what happens.

12/12/2017, 10:22 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Persons aren't always charged in an accident, sometimes it is an accident depending what happened and who was involved. The father I would have put him in jail for years, the kid would get counseling and monitoring. I have read several swimming pool drownings of children over the years with kids and no one held responsible it was called an accident. The parents didn't see it as justice for the kid, they said it would be the last thing their son would want to happen to his life long friend.



Neither of my parents deserved to be placed in prison for years for leaving a loaded gun where I could find it as a toddler. They simply made a careless mistake which fortunately didn't cost anyone his life.

In this case the boy was plenty old enough to know to never point a gun at anyone unless in self-defense. Pointing guns at innocent people is stupid and only a very foolish 13-year-old would have pointed a gun at his friend even if he didn't believe the gun was loaded.

As for the DA, he was simply being more objective about who was responsible for what happened than the parents of the slain boy who knew the other boy and cared more about him than the DA.

12/12/2017, 10:28 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
mais oui Profile
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

I consider the 13 year old to be a little too old for him not to have the primary responsibility for what happens.



would you let him vote?
enlist in the army?
marry?
serve on your jury?
sign for credit?

you seem to think that he has adult capabilities so its only logical that he should be allowed to do the above things.

quote:

Neither of my parents deserved to be placed in prison for years for leaving a loaded gun where I could find it as a toddler.



actually they did and depending on the state they not only morally but legally deserved to go to jail.

You say its OK because no one was hurt and it was just a silly mistake suppose I were to drink a half dozen martinis hop into my car and drive down the road would that be OK - it was after all a silly mistake and no one got hurt.

Its a bit late sending some one to jail after some one gets killed

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12/12/2017, 11:08 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


If your parents are that irresponsible, at 13 how exactly are you to know responsibility, from the responsibility fairy?
12/13/2017, 1:10 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

would you let him vote?
enlist in the army?
marry?
serve on your jury?
sign for credit?-mais



No, but that's irrelevant. I also wouldn't let an 18-year-old freshman in college perform brain surgery or be an astronaut but if he committed murder I'd hold him responsible.

quote:

you seem to think that he has adult capabilities so its only logical that he should be allowed to do the above things.



A classic case of "apples and oranges." The fact that he isn't capable of performing certain adult tasks or simply isn't allowed to do so doesn't mean that he isn't responsible for what he does do.

If he shoots someone he is responsible for that just as he would be responsible if he decided to take his father's car and go for a joyride. If he wrecked the car and ran over a policeman while doing so not only would he be considered responsible for it he would be held accountable.

quote:

Actually they did and depending on the state they not only morally but legally deserved to go to jail.



They did not morally deserve to go to prison. My dad was a gun collector and neither of them believed the gun was available to me. They were surprised when I managed to gain access to it. Also, after that incident my mom saw to it that it never happened again by getting the guns out of the house.

quote:

You say its OK because no one was hurt and it was just a silly mistake suppose I were to drink a half dozen martinis hop into my car and drive down the road would that be OK - it was after all a silly mistake and no one got hurt.



Getting drunk and driving a car is quite different from putting a gun where you don't believe a toddler can find it and being surprised when he or she does.

quote:

Its a bit late sending some one to jail after some one gets killed.



I agree.
12/15/2017, 2:57 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

If your parents are that irresponsible, at 13 how exactly are you to know responsibility, from the responsibility fairy?



Even a 13-year-old should know better than to point a real gun at their friend and to take guns very seriously.
12/15/2017, 2:59 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


You are giving them more credit than they deserve, which is not their fault. I've raised kids and I'm raising grand kids and 'parenting' does not work that way, they don't know better, unless they are taught and half the time that doesn't stick either. You cross your fingers and hope they eventually get it as they age into maturity. At the end of the day it is the parent who should know better, if not for that parent, that child would still be alive.
12/15/2017, 3:16 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
mais oui Profile
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

No, but that's irrelevant. I also wouldn't let an 18-year-old freshman in college perform brain surgery or be an astronaut but if he committed murder I'd hold him responsible.



you wouldnt let a freshman do brain surgery because he has not had the training we are not talking about training we are talking about the innate ability to be responsible.

If some one isnt responsible enough to judge your actions (in a jury) how can he be responsible enough to judge his own?


quote:

If he shoots someone he is responsible for that just as he would be responsible if he decided to take his father's car and go for a joyride.



suppose for a moment that I accept your premise, would a ten yearold be responsible? a 6 year old? a three year old?

there has to be a lower limit or you would be jailing toddlers for shooting people (Veronica Rutledge was shot dead by her two year old - what do you think 20 years in the slammer be long enough even though he would still be a young man on his release?)


quote:

They did not morally deserve to go to prison



Im sorry but they absolutely did!


quote:

Getting drunk and driving a car is quite different from putting a gun where you don't believe a toddler can find it and being surprised when he or she does.



How? both are the result of stupidity and both can result in multiple deaths - at least the drunk driver can claim that his judgement was impaired by alcohol when he was stupid presumably your parents were not judgement impaired

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12/15/2017, 10:27 am Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Still believe in our jury system?


The US has a fairly complex judicial system, to review it in a classroom setting is very revealing as to the basis of Innocent UNTIL PROVEN Guilt. All criminals INCLUDING those witnessed in the activity of proceedings is granted their day in court according to Federal Law. Otherwise we would be no different than the ME or any other nation in the ability to jail, hold, torture or torment until the 'Accused' dies as happens in many foreign instances. Or you have Kangaroo Tribunals as the Amanda Knox situation where proof was never forth coming as an absolute but by association found guilty.
12/15/2017, 8:33 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 


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