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How about now? Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

Michael Slager, the white former South Carolina police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black man in the back as he fled a traffic stop, was sentenced Thursday to 20 years in prison.

In a rare case of a law enforcement officer being imprisoned for an on-duty shooting, U.S. District Judge David Norton of the South Carolina District sentenced Slager after ruling that he committed second-degree murder when he shot 50-year-old Walter Scott in April 2015.

The judge made a pretty powerful statement,” Harris said. “The sentence tells us that this is taken seriously, and maybe some people won’t think it’s justice, but looked at in the universe of police shootings, with officers so rarely charged, it is significant.”



That's what a federal judge did. Here's what a jury did:

quote:

Earlier this year, Slager, 36, pleaded guilty in federal court to violating Scott’s civil rights by unjustly shooting him five times. As part of the plea agreement, prosecutors dropped state murder charges. Slager’s murder trial in state court ended in a mistrial last December after a deadlocked jury was unable to reach a unanimous verdict.



Yes, the jury couldn't find a police officer guilty even after viewing video of him gunning down an unarmed man who was running away from him. It took a judge to call it what it was under the law, second degree murder.

We gain nothing by having a jury system over a system that employs judges or a panel of professional jurors consisting of experts in forensic science etc. It's just that we've been taught as Americans that employing a jury of average joes is a better way to find justice in court.

If the general public wasn't so biased and prejudiced that sort of system might work well but unfortunately that isn't reality.

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12/10/2017, 12:48 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: How about now? Still believe in our jury system?


Federal judges arent always what they should be!

Trump is appointing one (Brett Talley) who has almost no legal experience of any sort and has never presented a case.

In the US judges are either elected - make too many unpopular decisions and you are out - they dont have to be legally wrong decisions just unpopular ones
Or they are political appointees - you have to wonder what sort of judges Trump will appoint - well we know about Brett Talley but what about the others

Brett Talley aged 36 three years as a lawyer, has spent most of his adult life as a political speechwriter and a writer of horror stories and has never presented a case in court - what sort of decisions is he going to make
12/10/2017, 1:04 am Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: How about now? Still believe in our jury system?


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Daniel Shaver, 26, was unarmed. He was sobbing, begging the police officers not to shoot him. He was crawling on the floor toward officers, as a cop on the scene told him to do. But as he inched forward, he appeared to extend his hand backwards — and an officer, 27-year-old Philip Brailsford, opened fire, killing Shaver.

Gruesome video:

On Thursday, Brailsford was acquitted of a murder charge over the 2016 shooting. Police then released video of the encounter.

Last edited by Yobbo, 12/10/2017, 1:19 am
12/10/2017, 1:18 am Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: How about now? Still believe in our jury system?


It was on the news this am with video, I thought I'd throw up as I watched that man crawling on his hands and knees begging and sobbing. This is who we have become, really??? I don't know where I am anymore, third world, alien planet. I am so ready to get out of "Hotel California" and if I could I would.
12/10/2017, 3:37 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: How about now? Still believe in our jury system?


quote:

mais oui wrote:

Federal judges arent always what they should be!

Trump is appointing one (Brett Talley) who has almost no legal experience of any sort and has never presented a case.

In the US judges are either elected - make too many unpopular decisions and you are out - they dont have to be legally wrong decisions just unpopular ones
Or they are political appointees - you have to wonder what sort of judges Trump will appoint - well we know about Brett Talley but what about the others

Brett Talley aged 36 three years as a lawyer, has spent most of his adult life as a political speechwriter and a writer of horror stories and has never presented a case in court - what sort of decisions is he going to make



There isn't any easy way to escape bias and prejudice when it comes to judging criminal and civil cases. Using judges is certainly not a way to do that but neither is using a jury system. The problem is that juries far too often deliver bad verdicts and there is no way to correct that problem by firing them. They do their dirty work and then their job is over.

At least with judges when they show themselves to be incompetent they can be replaced.

12/10/2017, 7:05 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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quote:

katie5445 wrote:

It was on the news this am with video, I thought I'd throw up as I watched that man crawling on his hands and knees begging and sobbing. This is who we have become, really??? I don't know where I am anymore, third world, alien planet. I am so ready to get out of "Hotel California" and if I could I would.



It truly was a sickening video but it shows that the police will shoot and kill anyone of any race, not just black men.

It also shows that an incompetent jury filled with bias favoring police officers will not convict them even when they needlessly shoot someone.

It also demonstrates that the police are trained to shoot people with little to no provocation. You don't need to be armed. You just need to disobey one of their orders to be shot. It's almost like they are robots programmed to shoot people without any use of their own brainpower to make rational judgments.

What should the police have done in this case? Very simple. Told the man to raise his arms in the air and turn around with his back to them and to keep his arms up. Then they could have simply walked up to him and handcuffed him. Instead they went through that bullshit about him crawling towards them. Why? Apparently because they were aholes.

The murderous police officer should have been found guilty of second degree murder by a jury.
12/10/2017, 7:31 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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quote:

but it shows that the police will shoot and kill anyone of any race, not just black men.



I thought the victim here (Walter Scott) was black.
12/10/2017, 7:50 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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quote:

mais oui wrote:

 
quote:

but it shows that the police will shoot and kill anyone of any race, not just black men.



I thought the victim here (Walter Scott) was black.



You're right but I was referring to another case that Yob and katie brought up. A young white man was shot and killed by a white police officer after he made a harmless move without having a gun in his possession. The police were close enough to him to tell that he didn't have a gun. And they could have simply had him turn around with his arms in the air. They didn't need to make him crawl toward them. That was a load of bullshit.

But another jury let the cop off the hook anyway.
12/10/2017, 8:15 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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I suggest you take a Police offered fight or flight class. When you MUST stand your ground, you have no aspects of a potential problem person but what is presented in the minute to two minute encounter, they make ANY deliberate moves that were told to not do they have just become 'Threat'. There is but one to two seconds in most instances where a decision MUST be made shoot, or die. Armchair quarterbacking a video from a body cam does the scene NO JUSTICE. And to claim you know better by it is Not to the conditions at hand at time of incident.
12/16/2017, 10:28 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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quote:

cooter50 wrote:

I suggest you take a Police offered fight or flight class. When you MUST stand your ground, you have no aspects of a potential problem person but what is presented in the minute to two minute encounter, they make ANY deliberate moves that were told to not do they have just become 'Threat'. There is but one to two seconds in most instances where a decision MUST be made shoot, or die. Armchair quarterbacking a video from a body cam does the scene NO JUSTICE. And to claim you know better by it is Not to the conditions at hand at time of incident.



A threat needs to be real. Just someone moving doesn't qualify as a threat even when they have been told not to move.

I don't believe in double standards. Can you imagine what would happen to a woman if she shot her abusive husband when he was unarmed several times killing him and claimed that she saw him move his hand suspiciously and thought he had a gun? If you were on a jury would you vote to acquit her based on that claim of hers?

She'd most likely be locked up in prison, probably for first degree murder. And that would be true even though she would have good reason to fear him harming her with or without a gun. She would be quite aware of his potential for harming her.

I see no reason why cops should be routinely allowed to shoot and kill unarmed people and get by with it by simply claiming they moved suddenly and suspiciously. I would at least require that the person they shot had a gun before accepting any claim of self-defense.

12/17/2017, 8:13 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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quote:

A threat needs to be real.



Not in law it doesnt
In law what has to be real is your belief in the threat NOT the threat itself

quote:

Can you imagine what would happen to a woman if she shot her abusive husband when he was unarmed several times killing him and claimed that she saw him move his hand suspiciously and thought he had a gun?.....[sign in to see URL]'d most likely be locked up in prison, probably for first degree murder.



 University of Tasmania’s Rebecca Bradfield looked at 65 Australian cases between 1980 and 2000 in which a woman killed her male spouse after domestic violence. Only 6 cases or 9% resulted in a murder conviction - one of the six murder convictions involved the killing of a sleeping man!


In America, Barbara Sheehan acquitted by a jury after shooting dead her husband of 24 years


Mary Winkler shot her sleeping husband in the back at close range with a shot gun - she served 145 days in prison


quote:

I see no reason why cops should be routinely allowed to shoot and kill unarmed people and get by with it



I see no reason why ANY BODY should be routinely allowed to shoot and kill unarmed people and get by with it
12/17/2017, 12:00 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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And NOT in a Police encounter when a 'Suspect' does not follow commands to CONFIRM he is non-dangerous. He was moving along and made a reach to his right belt line. The police had not been able to confirm he to NOT be armed, that was found AFTER the fact.

The officer was responding on a call as to a suspect pointing a weapon from a hotel room window. The 'Suspect was intoxicated, was uncooperative, tried to be argumentative, in no instance was his actions following any commands to his submission to authority. Then he reached back, bad choice.
12/17/2017, 10:22 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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quote:

cooter50 wrote:

And NOT in a Police encounter when a 'Suspect' does not follow commands to CONFIRM he is non-dangerous. He was moving along and made a reach to his right belt line. The police had not been able to confirm he to NOT be armed, that was found AFTER the fact.

The officer was responding on a call as to a suspect pointing a weapon from a hotel room window. The 'Suspect was intoxicated, was uncooperative, tried to be argumentative, in no instance was his actions following any commands to his submission to authority. Then he reached back, bad choice.



All other countries - well civilised countries - have no problems like this.
12/17/2017, 10:44 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Really?
12/17/2017, 11:25 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Really! In civilised nations cops don't get away with killing people the way US cops do.

Last edited by Yobbo, 12/18/2017, 1:38 am
12/18/2017, 1:36 am Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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quote:

In civilised nations cops don't get away with killing people the way US cops do



 In civilised nations cops don't kill people the way US cops do
12/18/2017, 12:24 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Really:

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12/18/2017, 12:45 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Put that nation by nation level in relative population to population level of the US. singularly the nations do not exceed the US, but when comparing apples to apples and populations numbers where the singular nations become states of a larger perspective then the numbers close in on each other.
12/18/2017, 12:56 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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brutality is not killing

number of people killed by the police in the most recent year for which there are figures - the number is brackets is deaths per 100 million of population)

Australia - 1 (4)
Austria - 1 (12)
Denmark - 4 (71)
Finland -0 (0)
France -14 (6)
Germany - 10 (12)
Netherlands - 3 (18)
Norway - 0
Sweden - 0
UK - 3 (5)


USA 963 (342)

If you want those figures per 10 million of population



12/18/2017, 1:29 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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How many were claimed for 'Brutality'? Have you watched German Polzei, they are far from congenial in handling 'Suspects'.
12/18/2017, 4:00 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Again Cooter you are doing that old thing of when some one points out how badly US cops (or any other aspect of American life) are you immediately scratch around until you find some one you perceive as worse.

Just for a change how about you compare your country with the best and not the worst.

Having watched several 'fly on the wall' American cop shows in which one would
think that they are on best behavior since they are being filmed for national (and international) TV they way in which they treat suspects is vile. I would very much doubt that any police service in Europe is as bad never mind worse
12/18/2017, 5:20 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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He is wrong it is worse here at least in public than the many countries I have been in Europe, including Germany. I didn't immigrate to the UK, I went on an adventure and spent a lot of time in other countries and there is no comparison to here but then the statistics show that. I hate the denial that a problem exists in this country.
12/18/2017, 5:40 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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quote:

mais oui wrote:

brutality is not killing

number of people killed by the police in the most recent year for which there are figures - the number is brackets is deaths per 100 million of population)

Australia - 1 (4)
Austria - 1 (12)
Denmark - 4 (71)
Finland -0 (0)
France -14 (6)
Germany - 10 (12)
Netherlands - 3 (18)
Norway - 0
Sweden - 0
UK - 3 (5)


USA 963 (342)

If you want those figures per 10 million of population



I wonder what the figures would be per nation over a decade.
12/18/2017, 6:01 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Australia 41 (2003 -2013 inc)
Austria 8 (2002 -2011)
Denmark 10 (1997-2006)
Finland 20 (2004 -2013)
France 85 (over 8 years 2005 -2012)
Germany 47 (over 6 years 2010 - 2015)
Netherlands 20 (over 7 years 2009 - 2015)
Norway 2 (2005 - 2014)
UK 19 (2006- 2016)
12/18/2017, 6:24 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Then look to causal factors and what triggers the events. Do the same occur in EU? Do the authorities turn a blind eye in EU? Friend of mine was accosted in Italy, a street thug attempted to steal his wedding ring and the gold chain around his neck, the thug was knocked down and the cops arrested my friend for assault. He was released when the name of the assaulted was presented at the police station but as a tourist stated he would never return there. Seems the thugs get to run by the authorities.

So which would be worse?

In the US we have total disrespect for police, in EU that does not happen as they WILL slap you down, you have not the same level of rights there as here and the people are aware. Certain regions in the US the police are the minority and the target, the thugs run the neighborhoods and the cops avoid until gets totally out of hand where someone usually ends up shot.
12/18/2017, 7:39 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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In the US we have total disrespect for police, in EU that does not happen as they WILL slap you down, you have not the same level of rights there as here and the people are aware

without going into every European country I will address the situation in UK and Ireland where a person 'interfacing with the police' has many more rights than in the US the big difference is that the UK police can and will arrest you under any one of several powers - but they wont have you doing on street amateur dramatics (no funny walks, no reciting the 11 times table or saying the alphabet backwards)nor will you be told to lie in the dirt (except in very exception circumstances) but most importantly in almost every case you will not get a gun pushed into your face nor will you get yourself shot for not following orders.
12/18/2017, 8:33 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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This map is the best aspect for the reason for police/suspect firearms deaths.

Relate that to any other place and also relate the legal ownership of weapons is NOT as condensed to narrow points:

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My nephew WAS a police officer in Long Beach, they were in one of the worst counties. A county that had few reasons for legal ownership of firearms.

Police in a very narrow few counties deal with large volumes of gang based or ethnically based criminals with ILLEGAL weapons.
12/18/2017, 9:33 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Looking at a map of counties with the number of gangs that doesn't appear to be true. I took a look into it a few months ago and I was shocked at the number and the type.
12/19/2017, 2:39 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 


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