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Re: Newspeak is alive and well in America ...


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

And pro-lifers need to drop the "abortion is murder" nonsense.

It's the woman's body and it's her choice. Not yours. Not mine. Not the state's. And definitely not some church's.




I agree that they need to stop the "abortion is murder" nonsense but the way to get them to do that is not to use terms for unborn babies that they don't and won't accept. That's not going to move the needle.

Talking about it being the woman's body won't move the needle either because "pro-lifers" are concerned about the unborn baby's rights, not just the woman's rights. It is the woman's choice and she has the right to make that choice but that isn't made clear to "pro-lifers" by talking about it being the woman's body when an unborn baby is also involved.



How about a different situation - suppose an infant suffers from a serious illness and unless they receive a transplant from the mother the child will die. The mother refuses. How many of those pro-lifers would force the mother to make the donation?

Doesn't the infant have rights? Shouldn't the mother be forced to make the donation whether she wants to or not?
12/18/2017, 7:29 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Newspeak is alive and well in America ...


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

They are nothing to do with morality, they are simply stages of pregnancy.



They are stages in the development of the unborn baby. And them having nothing to do with morality means that using them to try to make a point about morality is not going to work.

You can't begin to convince "pro-lifers" that abortion should remain legal by talking about those stages of unborn baby development.
12/19/2017, 10:56 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
Philer Profile
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Re: Newspeak is alive and well in America ...


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

And pro-lifers need to drop the "abortion is murder" nonsense.

It's the woman's body and it's her choice. Not yours. Not mine. Not the state's. And definitely not some church's.




I agree that they need to stop the "abortion is murder" nonsense but the way to get them to do that is not to use terms for unborn babies that they don't and won't accept. That's not going to move the needle.

Talking about it being the woman's body won't move the needle either because "pro-lifers" are concerned about the unborn baby's rights, not just the woman's rights. It is the woman's choice and she has the right to make that choice but that isn't made clear to "pro-lifers" by talking about it being the woman's body when an unborn baby is also involved.



How about a different situation - suppose an infant suffers from a serious illness and unless they receive a transplant from the mother the child will die. The mother refuses. How many of those pro-lifers would force the mother to make the donation?

Doesn't the infant have rights? Shouldn't the mother be forced to make the donation whether she wants to or not?



Good questions to ask "pro-lifers." I suspect they will have trouble answering them in a way that is consistent with their "pro-life" position.

12/19/2017, 11:01 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Newspeak is alive and well in America ...


Another question - a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and the pro-lifer has to make a choice - rescue a container that contains several dozen fertilized ova or rescue a single toddler that's present in the building for some reason. If life begins at conception those fertilized ova are all "children" so who should be rescued? The toddler or the several dozen "unborn babies" in the container?
12/20/2017, 12:25 am Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: Newspeak is alive and well in America ...


It looks as though you're still awaiting opinions on this one.

I think the toddler would be the one to rescue, he/she is the only child in the room.




Last edited by birdcharm, 12/20/2017, 5:14 am
12/20/2017, 5:14 am Link to this post PM birdcharm Blog
 
Philer Profile
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Re: Newspeak is alive and well in America ...


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

Another question - a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and the pro-lifer has to make a choice - rescue a container that contains several dozen fertilized ova or rescue a single toddler that's present in the building for some reason. If life begins at conception those fertilized ova are all "children" so who should be rescued? The toddler or the several dozen "unborn babies" in the container?



I would save the toddler because the idea of leaving a toddler to suffer and burn up in a fire is horrible. However, I would want to save both.

In the news tonight I heard about the case of a young woman who gave birth to a baby girl who started out as a frozen embryo 24 years ago. They claimed that is the same year her mother was born. Not her natural mother but the one who gave birth to her.
12/20/2017, 8:39 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Newspeak is alive and well in America ...


I suspect most people would want to save both but logic says that if fertilized embryos are actually babies the question is whether it's best to save the dozens of babies in the container or to save the toddler.

This was actually the tail end of an article that began with a runaway train barreling down the tracks towards a group of five people who, for whatever reason, were stuck on the tracks and couldn't get out of the way. However, there is a switch between the train and them that, if thrown, will shunt the locomotive off to a siding - only problem is there is a single person on the siding who will be killed if you do that. What is the moral choice? (Assume that the person throwing the switch doesn't know any of the people on the track.)

The article goes thru a number of scenarios where the distinction between the two options becomes murkier (or at least the choices become less palatable - e.g., the only way to stop the train is to throw the fat guy standing next to you onto the track and so forth) and then it ends up with the embryo question (which it left hanging).
12/20/2017, 2:34 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 


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