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"You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


"You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends, referencing tax overhaul

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“I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.” - NRA president Karl T. Frederick, 1938
12/26/2017, 3:33 pm Link to this post PM John1959 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


For once he's telling the truth. I'm sure that everyone in the group he was speaking to (and people like them) just got a lot richer. The rest, not so much so.
12/26/2017, 7:23 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


The rest, somewhat poorer.
12/26/2017, 7:46 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


Could never be any more to that statement as in You are all so much richer, so why are you not feeding it out more? Why are you not repairing the industry here now? Could not ever have been a jab in the ribs as a sentiment of hey, wake up and start repairing the nation inference?
12/27/2017, 1:38 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

... You are all so much richer, so why are you not feeding it out more? ...



The answer is simple:

"Wall Street actively cheers against pay bumps: When American Airlines announced raises for pilots and flight attendants, the company’s stock fell 5 percent. “This is frustrating. Labor is being paid first again. Shareholders get leftovers,” Citi analyst Kevin Crissey wrote to clients."

"... most companies have said they’ll use the impending cash glut on stock buybacks and rising dividends, both rewards for shareholders who have sent the Dow Jones Industrial Average up by 25 percent this year in preparation for this moment."

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That article is well worth reading in it's entirety. And while you're doing so, don't forget that much of executive management's compensation is often tied to the company's stock price.
12/27/2017, 8:38 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


So there is ABSOLUTELY Nothing else there? You have a magic crystal ball and can state so unequivocally?

The Middle Class get benefits you "KNEW" would not come as there is ABSOLUTELY NO Trickle Down and you all complain, what's up with that?
12/27/2017, 9:32 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


What are you talking about?

Most of the companies have said that they'll give the tax savings to their shareholders (either share buybacks or special dividends).

In general companies are already sitting on excess cash so there is no need for this bill (except to personally enrich Trump and the GOP's big donors).

And we know that trickle down economics has never worked.
12/27/2017, 10:24 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


And you discount the issuance of bonus to employees, raises to the employees, the addition of MORE employees as if that is Nothing and has nothing to do with the new legislation. Is called Downplaying a condition.
12/28/2017, 12:45 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


Not when the majority has said they will be rewarding their stockholders and who does a bonus go to, not the blue collar worker and what raises and more employees?
12/28/2017, 1:34 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


What majority? All I have seen besides this report is the news of BLUE collar workers receiving raises and bonuses at ATT, Boeing and a few others as airlines.
12/28/2017, 10:16 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


You haven't been paying attention.

here

The announcements about bonuses etc make good press but that's about it.
12/28/2017, 1:35 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


OK so then what is your answer? To tax the 'Rich' you have to first put dollar figures on that, then you have to define levels of taxation which will infiltrate and damage Middle Class buying power.

Currently in IL, CA, MI, states with HIGHER corporate tax rates they are seeing a mass migration OUT, not in, to recover the lost taxes they tax the remaining ever harder and they too begin to leave, the industries leave that leaves the people so they hit that mark next until the turnip dries up. So what Pray Tell, is your response as 'Trickle Down' fails tax wise as well as income wise by the definitions put in prior posts.
12/28/2017, 3:46 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends



Oped


Ultimately, Trump's presidency represents the culmination of a right-wing movement that has been underway for nearly half a century.
12/28/2017, 6:11 pm Link to this post PM Yobbo
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

Currently in IL, CA, MI, states with HIGHER corporate tax rates they are seeing a mass migration OUT, not in ...



So show us where the workers in those companies that have moved are better off (i.e., better paid) than they were before they moved - if they aren't then it would appear that trickle down has failed.

12/28/2017, 7:24 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


I don't see any "mass migration" CA. gained 6.1% from 2010-2017, MI., gained 0.8% in the same time period and IL. lost 0.2%.
12/28/2017, 7:33 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


Odd, would like to see where your numbers come from:

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12/28/2017, 7:57 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


cooter, that article doesn't explain the drivers behind the exodus. Things like ]housing costs for example. And then there are companies relocating because of the cost of their Workers Compensation premiums in California as opposed to across the border in an adjacent state.
12/29/2017, 6:14 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


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or IL. or MI. or any state.
12/29/2017, 6:14 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


Like the super inflated CA housing prices as "Everyone wants to live here" retort from realtors? Or the fact the state taxes the crap out of every citizen due to those Inflated values? Or the fact the mass exodus from CA to the DFW region of TX as those companies tire of CA politics and taxes to seek less cost to have a facility and employees?

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12/31/2017, 12:25 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


I pay 9% state tax in OR. 3% less than I would pay in CA., although none in TX., I wouldn't live there if you paid me, gave me the land and a house on it! Unless maybe it included an oil well and I didn't have to live there!
12/31/2017, 5:25 pm Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


In 2004 ( the last big tax break for big business) 94% of the cash benefit was spent by the companies on shares buy backs and shares dividends (leaving 6% extra for the workers)

there is no reason to believe that things have changed
12/31/2017, 9:18 pm Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


quote:

mais oui wrote:

In 2004 ( the last big tax break for big business) 94% of the cash benefit was spent by the companies on shares buy backs and shares dividends (leaving 6% extra for the workers)

there is no reason to believe that things have changed



True - the Laffer Curve failed its test then and there is no reason to think that things will be any different this time around

Two articles re the Laffer Curve - the basis for this dog of a tax bill. The first is from an ultra-conservative website ...

Trump Tax Cut an Ode to Reagan-Era Laffer Curve
Stephen Moore

The unsung hero of the GOP Christmas gift of a tax cut is Arthur Laffer — the Reagan economist who helped devise the Gipper's tax reductions.

Those tax cuts rebuilt the U.S. economy in the 1980s and pulled us out of the mini-depression of high inflation and unemployment in the late 1970s.

Some 30 years later, Laffer has struck again. House Speaker Paul Ryan tells me that there "were very few economists who had a bigger impact on this tax bill than Laffer. Believe, me our (Republican) members listen to him." Rep. Mark Meadows, the chairman of the Freedom Caucus, adds, "Laffer is one of our go-to guys on understanding the economy."

And why not? Laffer is the economist who over the last several decades has taught presidents, foreign leaders, governors and senators how taxes weigh on the economy. Just about 40 years ago he had a famous dinner in Washington with then-top White House advisers, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld, and drew them the famous chart on the cloth hotel napkin. The "Laffer Curve" teaches us that when tax rates get too high, they smother investment, saving, work and entrepreneurship.

Prior to Laffer, most of the influential economists believed, wrongly, that growth is influenced by Keynesian "demand-side" forces, such as consumer spending and government outlays. But of course, it doesn't matter how much demand there is for something: If the taxes are too high to turn a profit, no one will produce it. And people can't buy things until they have a job to earn income. A poor nation such as India, which has a population of over 1 billion, has plenty of demand — but they can't produce things.

Most Americans came to understand the real-life wisdom of the Laffer theories when Ronald Reagan slashed tax rates from 70 percent to 28 percent in the 1980s and federal revenues nearly doubled. The economy experienced one of the greatest growth spurts in American history from 1983 to 1990.

Economist Larry Lindsey has documented from IRS data that after those tax cuts, IRS collections from the rich surged, even with lower tax rates.

Donald Trump wants to be the next Reagan, and his tax cut is much in that fashion. Back in the 1980s the problem was ....

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The second is a more rational discussion of the Laffer Curve ...

Almost everything Republicans get wrong about the economy started with a cocktail napkin in 1974

The sealing of America’s fiscal fate began in 1974, over cocktails.

As afternoon faded to evening on December 4, Dick Cheney and a young economist named Art Laffer shuffled into a booth at the Two Continents restaurant in the iconic Hotel Washington—it had appeared in scenes from the Godfather II just months earlier—two blocks from the US Treasury department. Cheney was US president Gerald Ford’s deputy chief of staff. He and his boss, Donald Rumsfeld, were looking for alternatives to Ford’s plan to raise taxes 5%. Raising taxes was a bad idea, said Laffer. If Ford really wanted to spur economic growth, and therefore government revenue, he should cut tax rates.

Cheney wasn’t following. So Laffer grabbed a napkin, uncapped a Sharpie, and drew two perpendicular lines and a blimp-shaped curve, halved by a faint dotted line. With the tax rate on the y-axis and tax revenue on the x-axis, the chart showed that, except at its bend, there were always two points on the curve that generated the same amount of government funds: a higher rate on a smaller base of economic activity, and a lower rate on a larger base of economic activity.

“The conventional wisdom was: You want more revenue, you raise taxes,” Cheney recalled 30 years later, in a Bloomberg interview reenacting that landmark 1974 meeting. “What Art brought to the table with these curves is that if you wanted more revenue, you were better off if you lowered taxes, to stimulate economic growth and economic activity.”

This moment remains one of the most famous legends of modern economic history. Its message—that tax cuts pay for themselves—endures too. (Look no further than president Donald Trump’s budget plan for proof.)

This is even more remarkable when you consider that, except in its very vague suggestion that tax rates alone do not dictate tax revenue, Laffer’s curve is wrong.

Laffer’s curvy logic

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Art and his chart in 1980


Growth, argued Laffer, depends on how much people work and how much businesses invest. He believed both those things hinge on tax rates: the more income the government takes away in taxes, the less motivated people are to work and save (leaving businesses less money to invest).

The government that thinks that raising taxes is necessary to pay for social programs and other public services is short-changing itself, argued Laffer. When tax rates are too high—in the “prohibitive range” of his chart—people work less and businesses invest less, stifling growth and shrinking the total amount of income available for the government to tax.

“We’ve been taxing work, output and income and subsidizing non-work, leisure and un-employment,” Laffer scribbled above his napkin chart, dedicating the napkin to Cheney’s then boss at the White House, Donald Rumsfeld. “The consequences are obvious!”

By letting people keep more of their earnings—encouraging work and investment—tax cuts fire up enterprise, he argues. The growth that results broadens the country’s overall income so much that, paradoxically, the government can bring in even more revenue just by taxing at a lower rate.

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The problem is, this tidy arc of cause and consequence doesn’t exist in the real world. Sure, extremely high tax rates douse economic activity. But there’s no reason to assume the relationship between tax revenue and tax rates is perfectly U-shaped. And the equilibrium point at which a government collects the most revenue possible without dragging down the economy is impossible to know—and varies by country. There was no reason in 1974—or, for that matter, now—to think the US was on the curve’s “prohibitive” half (many economists put the inflection point for the highest marginal tax rate at around 70%). In fact, without detailed data, you can’t tell where on Laffer’s curve (or non-curve) you are at all.

Laffer’s general idea of supply-side stimulus can sometimes work. Cutting tax rates that primarily benefit rich people shifts wealth from the middle classes to the rich. That might sound unfair, but in developing countries where there’s not enough money to fund the investment needed to spur growth, a Laffer-style policy could (temporarily) help stimulate economic expansion by channelling wealth to potential investors.

But this scenario is not applicable to the US. Private investment tends to ebb and flow with the business cycle; when demand is feeble, so is investment. Cutting taxes on America’s rich isn’t going to encourage them to invest more—they already have plenty to spend and aren’t spending it. Worse, by shifting wealth from middle class families to the moneyed few—a group that is able to consume far less than the working masses—this sort of policy suppresses consumption, which in turn discourages investment in productive businesses. Slowing demand drags on growth, causing debt and unemployment to rise.

The Laffer curve’s strange, seductive power

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Ronald Reagan 1981 signing tax cut AP Charles TasnadiPresident Ronald Reagan signing the largest tax cut bill in US history at his California ranch in 1981.


By 1977, Laffer’s idea was emerging as the core tenet of the increasingly popular “supply-side economics.” At a time when stagflation was suffocating the US economy, and Watergate had sullied the Republican Party, Laffer’s logic offered the GOP an upbeat and understandable plan of action to give to constituents.

“It has been said that the popularity of the Laffer curve is due to the fact that you can explain it to a congressman in six minutes and he can talk about it for six months,” economist Hal Varian once mused.

Even in the late 1970s, most economists disagreed with Laffer’s assertion that the US was in the “prohibitive” range of the curve. But Laffer’s imagery overpowered the arguments of his critics. “To most quantitatively-inclined people unfamiliar with economics, [Laffer’s] explanation of economic inefficiency was a striking concept, contagious enough to go viral,” says economist Robert Shiller, who studied the concept’s persistent popularity in a recent paper (pdf).

But the idea of tax-cutting your way to faster growth might still have slipped into obscurity if not for Jude Wanniski, a Wall Street Journal editorial writer and long-time Laffer disciple—who just so happened to be the other guy at the Two Continents table alongside Dick Cheney.

Wanniski named the image on the napkin the “Laffer curve”—a term he would also use in his seminal 1978 treatise on supply-side economics, The Way the World Works. Wanniski’s dramatic retelling of the serendipitous exchange between Laffer and Cheney propelled the Laffer curve into the national spotlight—and caught the eye of Ronald Reagan.

Mind you, Reagan wasn’t exactly a hard sell. In fact, the former California governor saw himself as a living testament to the Laffer curve’s logic. As a B-list Hollywood movie star during the 1940s, Reagan faced the exorbitant tax rate of 91% (rates had been hiked to fund America’s war effort). “You could only make four pictures and then you were in the top bracket. So we all quit working after four pictures and went off to the country,” Reagan once remarked.

Laffer’s supply-side logic served as the intellectual cornerstone for Reagan’s tax cuts, marking a turning point in conservative ideology. Up until this point, Republican orthodoxy was mostly focused on avoiding fiscal deficits. The GOP was even fine with raising taxes as long as the government covered its expenses. Economists and liberal politicians saw tax cuts as a way to tuck some extra cash into workers’ pockets, encouraging them to consume—which, in turn, boosted growth. But many old-school Republicans scoffed at Laffer’s trickle-down theories. The most famous example of this came during the GOP primary, when George H.W. Bush dubbed Reagan’s supply-side ideology “voodoo economics.”

Reagan persevered, however, and one of his first priorities as president was putting Laffer’s ideas into practice. Shortly after taking office, Reagan and Congress macheted the US tax code, bringing the top marginal tax rate to 28%, down from 70%, and slashing corporate and capital gains taxes. Higher growth was supposed to expand the tax base, compensating the federal government for the revenues lost by the lower rate. Instead, public debt exploded—and continued to grow throughout Reagan’s tenure. The Laffer curve had just failed its first big test.

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Despite the Laffer curve’s 1980s flop, Republicans have steadfastly refused to give up on the theory. If anything, Laffer’s theory seems to have become more popular among GOP candidates.

In 2004, president George W. Bush claimed his sweeping tax cuts would grow the economy and boosted tax receipts. Instead, tax revenue shrank. Undeterred, Republican candidates in the 2012 presidential election fawned over Laffer’s ideas (Michele Bachmann declared herself an “Art Laffer fiend“). In the run-up to the 2016 Republican primaries, Laffer was once again everyone’s go-to econ guy; on one particular Friday in April 2015, the economist chatted with Rick Perry at 10am, Ben Carson at noon, Jeb Bush at [sign in to see URL], Bobby Jindal at 5, and closing out the day dining with Ted Cruz, reported the Washington Post.

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President Donald Trump also consulted with Laffer during the 2016 race. “My tax cut is the biggest since Ronald Reagan,” Trump had crowed during his campaign.

And with the debut of his new tax plan yesterday, we can see Laffer curve principles once again in action. The president plans to pay for huge tax cuts for the rich with the growth these tax breaks will supposedly stimulate, even though history has shown time and again that swelling debt is the far more likely outcome.

The myth lives on

If the last four decades left any doubt that narrative is more powerful than fact, the last four months have surely confirmed it. So it makes a certain kind of sense that the idea of a man whose “genius was in narratives, not data collection,” as Shiller put it, is shaping policy once again.

Tellingly, even in a narrative as compelling as the Laffer curve creation myth, it doesn’t seem to matter that the facts don’t really line up.

Here’s Cheney in 2014, reminiscing about the pivotal scribble in a Bloomberg video:

I remember a white tablecloth and white linen napkins because that’s what [Laffer] drew the curve on. It was just one of those events that stuck in my mind, because it’s not every day you see somebody whip out a Sharpie and mark up the cloth napkin at the dinner table. I remember it well, because I can’t recall anybody else drawing on a cloth napkin.

Laffer himself doesn’t recall the episode at all. “I personally don’t remember the details of that evening we all spent together, but Wanniski’s version could well be true,” wrote Laffer on page 291 of his 2010 book Return to Prosperity (which, incidentally, he co-wrote with one-time Trump economic adviser Stephen Moore).

“My only reservation about Wanniski’s version of the story concerns the fact that the restaurant used cloth napkins and my mother had raised me not to desecrate nice things,” wrote Laffer. “Ah well, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.”

That’s not quite right, though. Wanniski has always maintained the napkin was a paper cocktail napkin. This is particularly odd because after pocketing it as a souvenir on that fateful night, Wanniski donated the mythic Laffer curve napkin to the National Museum of American History. That napkin is cloth, however, not paper. Stranger still, beneath the curve, Laffer wrote, “To Don Rumsfeld, at our Two Continents Rendezvous,” even though Wanniski insists Rumsfeld wasn’t at the Two Continents that night (Laffer, however, says Rumsfeld was present). Even more puzzlingly, Laffer dated the napkin September 13, 1974—two and a half months before the December meeting that Cheney and Wanniski remember so clearly.

Could this legendary event have taken place twice? Quartz asked Rowena Itchon of the Laffer Center about the discrepancy. “Dr. Laffer drew on napkins when he had lunch with many people,” she said.

]SOURCE

I remember being at a presentation that Laffer gave to one of the actuarial bodies shortly after the passage of TR86 and, in response to a question from audience member who pointed out that he was paying more tax not less, Laffer was quite insistent that what mattered was the marginal rate, not the effective rate.

12/31/2017, 9:32 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


You can show all the Laffer Curve crap and denounce you would never live there jargon you wish, does not change the facts as to what is occurring NOW.

Last edited by cooter50, 12/31/2017, 10:28 pm
12/31/2017, 10:28 pm Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


cooter - just because you don't understand it (and don't like the obvious conclusion) doesn't mean it's wrong.

But if you really want to talk about "crap", the crap that the GOP just pushed thru is not going to help anyone (except the rich).
12/31/2017, 10:52 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


"Just because YOU do not understand" means you have no concept of reality in my Opinion. I do not follow 'Polls' nor 'laffer' curves as anyone and his brother can influence the data streams to show what they want how they want to influence opinions. I base on what occurs In REAL time around the nation.
1/5/2018, 1:24 am Link to this post PM cooter50 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

"Just because YOU do not understand" means you have no concept of reality in my Opinion.



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but they are NOT entitled to their own facts. And, if you're opinion runs counter to the facts you can expect it to be called for the heifer dust that it is.

quote:

I base on what occurs In REAL time around the nation.



Given that trickle down economics has been proven to be BS time and time again, what "real" time data are you basing your opinion on?
1/5/2018, 2:13 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


"Facts" as based upon Certain groups are Cherry Picked virtue less components without the remaining parts that were 'discounted or discarded as irrelevant'. Can state the same of certain polls that cherry pick within those regions they will receive the answers in the direction of an intended disposition.
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


In other words you don't like the answer so you're going to pretend that it's wrong.

As I said, you are entitled to your own opinion but you aren't entitled to your own facts. And, when your opinion runs contrary to the facts, ]you can expect to be called on it.
1/5/2018, 6:50 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


quote:

cooter50 wrote:

And you discount the issuance of bonus to employees, raises to the employees, the addition of MORE employees as if that is Nothing and has nothing to do with the new legislation. Is called Downplaying a condition.




Oh boy...

I know a Nigerian prince who'd love to meet you.

 Downplaying? during the Obama years the Dow also reached records and job and GDP numbers came in at the pace they're coming in lately. Yet those who found fault either dismissed the numbers as fake or said they could be better. Now suddenly, the numbers come in roughly the same and people already wanna carve Trump into Mount Rushmore.

Michelle went to Spain for a vacation (to which she's entitled to and for which money is already allocated): people were upset with her spending money on a European vacation.

Melania remains in NYC for 5 months with Secret Service 24/7: at a cost to taxpayer that was unprecedented and blew the secret service budget for the year. Instead the GOP complimented her for saving the taxpayers money by having a smaller staff.

Jobs number comes in over 200K under Obama: fake! We must look at the REAL unemployment.
Jobs number comes in around 150k under Trump: Place him on the $100 bill.

anyway, to the point. giving everything to the rich because they use OUR money to create jobs has not happened in 30+ years, why would it start now?

end of the year bonus are issued by fortune 500 companies every year. cost of living bonus happen at the same time. This is nothing new, not sure why you think this is directly linked to the new tax legislation.

It's been less than a month since it's passed. not sure where you are pulling these numbers from, is this something Trump tweeted?

Last edited by snowpixie, 1/6/2018, 8:55 am
1/6/2018, 8:28 am Link to this post PM snowpixie Blog
 
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Re: "You all just got a lot richer," Trump tells friends


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1/16/2018, 8:49 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2 Blog
 


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