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Re: Second degree murder?


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Their lucky day wasn't it, you didn't lose your head. It isn't always an intention that you set out for anyone to die, that doesn't mean you can't be held responsible. I would assume there are plenty of times a person or company didn't "mean it" that may be less a charge as an on purpose but it doesn't mean you escape responsibility for a persons death. I always have sympathy for those who unknowingly was the cause of someones injury or death, it'd be horrid. I don't know what this case is a person who knew his equipment was unsafe or a person who had no clue, either way he will be held responsible, ignorance is not an excuse but I will assume one could have a clearer conscience by thinking the were doing the right thing rather than knowing they did the wrong thing and caused loss of life.



I believe there was no intention to harm anyone and that efforts were made to make the slide safe for people to use. It wouldn't have made much sense for people to knowingly build and operate a dangerous slide which would decapitate people if they were hoping to make a lot of money.

That said, I have no problem with the designer or operators being held on criminal charges. Just not second degree murder charges. Something along the lines of negligent homicide and reckless endangerment.

4/4/2018, 11:13 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Second degree murder?


quote:

I believe there was no intention to harm anyone and that efforts were made to make the slide safe for people to use. It wouldn't have made much sense for people to knowingly build and operate a dangerous slide which would decapitate people if they were hoping to make a lot of money.



I agree that they didnt act knowingly or maliciously- but the act for second degree murder need not be knowing or malicious it need only be negligent.

As I understand it (and I may have missed something) the ride was installed in accordance with specification.

It was operated in accordance with specification.

and was operating within normal parameters

therefore for this incident to have occurred the design was wrong and the designer was negligent

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Re: Second degree murder?


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Capital murders and first-degree murders in Kansas are either premeditated intentional killings or classified as felony murder. On the other hand, second-degree murders are either unplanned but intentional killings, or killings caused by a reckless disregard for human life. The following chart outlines Kansas' second-degree murder law.

Code Section Kansas Statutes section 21-3402: Murder in the Second Degree

What's Prohibited? Killing a human being either:
• Intentionally, or
• Unintentionally but recklessly under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to the value of human life



Belle, even under the second definition, which is far different than the normal definition of second degree murder, this doesn't appear to qualify as second degree murder. There was no extreme indifference to the value of human life. As I've pointed out that would have made no sense for people trying to make money. They weren't indifferent to the value of human life. They were trying to make money by giving people a thrilling but safe ride, not endanger or kill people.

They made a mistake by building and operating a dangerous ride that was dangerous in a way they had not foreseen. None of them is truly guilty of second degree murder even by the wide open standards of what can qualify as second degree murder in Kansas.

4/4/2018, 11:37 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Second degree murder?


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his doesn't appear to qualify as second degree murder. There was no extreme indifference to the value of human life.



I suspect that had it been your son decapitated your views on the designers 'extreme indifference to the value of human life' might be different!

Having read a couple of states laws on negligent homicide
('research') the law in Kansas seems unremarkable


quote:

They were trying to make money by giving people a thrilling but safe ride, not endanger or kill people.



irrelevant!

He designed a piece of equipment which when properly installed and properly used lead to a fatal incident - an incident which could have been foreseen had he taken due care

When Eleuterio Chacaliaza didnt remove a piece of tape from an aircraft he didnt intend to cause any harm - certainly he didnt want to kill any one but his not removing the tape caused the aircraft to crash killing all 70passengers on board he was convicted of criminally negligent homicide.

If you are employed to perform a role then you have a responsibility to exercise due care and diligence - if you dont and something goes wrong then you are liable

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Re: Second degree murder?


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I suspect that had it been your son decapitated your views on the designers 'extreme indifference to the value of human life' might be different!-mais



Precisely but that sort of reaction is not limited to the parents. The innocent young victim in this case influenced the grand jury to bring indictments of second degree murder when no intentional murder took place.

quote:

Having read a couple of states laws on negligent homicide
('research') the law in Kansas seems unremarkable



Negligent homicide is generally classed as very different from second degree murder and carries lesser penalties.

quote:

irrelevant!

He designed a piece of equipment which when properly installed and properly used lead to a fatal incident - an incident which could have been foreseen had he taken due care



You're probably right. I suspect that if enough thought had gone into checking and rechecking the design the designer would have recognized a serious flaw.

quote:

When Eleuterio Chacaliaza didnt remove a piece of tape from an aircraft he didnt intend to cause any harm - certainly he didnt want to kill any one but his not removing the tape caused the aircraft to crash killing all 70passengers on board he was convicted of criminally negligent homicide.

If you are employed to perform a role then you have a responsibility to exercise due care and diligence - if you dont and something goes wrong then you are liable



I don't disagree with that. I would not have a problem with these guys being convicted of something less than second degree murder without the kind of penalties normally associated with intentional murder.


4/5/2018, 6:23 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Second degree murder?


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Precisely but that sort of reaction is not limited to the parents. The innocent young victim in this case influenced the grand jury to bring indictments of second degree murder when no intentional murder took place.




full marks for arguing against type (or maybe you are just flip-flopping) on countless threads you have complained about men who murder women getting 'away with it' because jurors 'dont care about women' (even female jurors) now you complain because jurors do care about young people!

for the record it is not the jury's role to care about any one


quote:

Negligent homicide is generally classed as very different from second degree murder



Is it?
where?

"Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life."

source http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html

maybe another source?

Second-degree murder is defined as an intentional killing that was not premeditated. In some states, second-degree murder also encompasses “depraved heart murder,” which is a killing caused by a reckless disregard for human life. Second-degree murder is often seen as a catch-all category for intentional or reckless killings that do not fall within a state’s definition of first-degree murder.
source - https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/second-degree-murder/



quote:

You're probably right. I suspect that if enough thought had gone into checking and rechecking the design the designer would have recognized a serious flaw.



I suspect not!
the designer (allegedly) had no technical or engineering expertise in amusement park rides and was just 'winging it' - the man who employed him to design the ride has also been charged

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4/5/2018, 11:00 am Link to this post PM mais oui Blog
 
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Re: Second degree murder?


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full marks for arguing against type (or maybe you are just flip-flopping) on countless threads you have complained about men who murder women getting 'away with it' because jurors 'dont care about women' (even female jurors) now you complain because jurors do care about young people-mais



Some young people. When young boys are killed as in this case juries tend to take that very seriously. Just like they tend to take the killing of a police officer very seriously. Not so much in the case of young women in "domestic cases" and other cases where they don't have a high opinion of the women involved. I've never claimed otherwise.

quote:

for the record it is not the jury's role to care about any one



It may not be their role but they don't always perform their role. Besides they are only human. They care about some people and not so much other people depending on their own personal biases. They don't stop being human beings with preferences just because they get on a jury.

quote:

Is it?
where?



In this country. Negligent homicide is not the same thing as second degree murder. You are conflating two different things, depraved heart murders and negligent homicides. They are not the same, at least as defined in our laws.

From wikipedia:

quote:

In the United States, all states define negligent homicide by statute, often defining the offense as involuntary manslaughter.[1] Negligent homicide may be a lesser included offense to first and second degree murder,[4] meaning that all of the elements of negligent homicide are elements of those more serious charges.

In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is a type of murder where an individual acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death, despite that individual not explicitly intending to kill. In a depraved-heart murder, defendants commit an act even though they know their act runs an unusually high risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to a person. If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a "depraved indifference" to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought.[1][2] In some states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder,[3] while in others, the act would be charged with varying degrees of manslaughter.



But even that second definition of second degree murder, the so-called depraved heart murder, doesn't appear to be what any of these defendants are guilty of committing.
4/6/2018, 3:31 am Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Second degree murder?


Wiki isnt the best or even a good source.

to say "In United States law,....." is meaningless! every state has its own law and then there is the federal law so there is no "United States law"

In case you missed it the first time
"Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life."

source http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html

and

Second-degree murder is defined as an intentional killing that was not premeditated. In some states, second-degree murder also encompasses “depraved heart murder,” which is a killing caused by a reckless disregard for human life. Second-degree murder is often seen as a catch-all category for intentional or reckless killings that do not fall within a state’s definition of first-degree murder.
source - https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/second-degree-murder/


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Re: Second degree murder?


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In case you missed it the first time-mais
"Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life."



I didn't miss it but it doesn't change anything. From any perspective you want to look at this case, none of the defendants committed second degree murder unless involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide qualify as second degree murder.

What you're talking about is the built in provision in our laws to allow so-called "depraved heart" murders to be legally classed as second degree murder in at least some states but that doesn't change reality. These guys weren't unconcerned about the safety of people who rode on their ride. They were just careless and negligent. At most they were guilty of involuntary manslaughter, a category of homicide which is also listed on the books in Kansas.
4/6/2018, 7:23 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Second degree murder?


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none of the defendants committed second degree murder unless involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide qualify as second degree murder.



so you dont think that designing a fairground ride when you have no training, no experience and no expertise to do so and your design results in an inherently dangerous ride which kills someone could be described as "dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life."


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