What are you doing for Ramadan? https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/t3202 Runboard| What are you doing for Ramadan? en-us Thu, 28 Mar 2024 09:36:19 +0000 Thu, 28 Mar 2024 09:36:19 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40071,from=rss#post40071https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40071,from=rss#post40071quote:Philer wrote: quote:Yobbo wrote: I'm not saying that there are no Christians who do good. Some definitely do do good. But on the other hand there are Christians who do evil things. I might add that there are atheists who fall into either camp. And Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus...... You're right but why do any of them do evil? In the case of Islam some people believe that when Muslims do evil things that it is because they aren't following Islam and Muslims doing good are what results from following Islam. My view is just the opposite. When Muslims do good things it is largely because they are straying away from Islam and demonstrating their non-Islamic humanity and showing some consideration for fellow humans. When they are following Islam is when we get evil things like stoning adulterers and chopping off the hands of thieves. I'm glad that most Muslims don't follow that Islamic rule about chopping off the hands of thieves. Islam leads to Muslims believing all sorts of nonsense including the notion that violence is justified against alleged enemies of Islam. That can even include fellow Muslims. It's not very conducive to people doing good things. The punishment factors in most religions were brutal and excessive, Christianity's have been ameliorated by 20 centuries of mankind's development (development that has often been slowed by the religion) while Islam lags badly. The reasons for the brutality are tied up with the mores of the society that existed at the time that the religions were invented. The softening depends on the attitudes of the society that the religion exists in. I might add that the elimination of religious brutality speeds up when the religion's grip on society loosens. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Yobbo)Tue, 22 May 2018 20:46:44 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40064,from=rss#post40064https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40064,from=rss#post40064quote:Yobbo wrote: I'm not saying that there are no Christians who do good. Some definitely do do good. But on the other hand there are Christians who do evil things. I might add that there are atheists who fall into either camp. And Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus...... You're right but why do any of them do evil? In the case of Islam some people believe that when Muslims do evil things that it is because they aren't following Islam and Muslims doing good are what results from following Islam. My view is just the opposite. When Muslims do good things it is largely because they are straying away from Islam and demonstrating their non-Islamic humanity and showing some consideration for fellow humans. When they are following Islam is when we get evil things like stoning adulterers and chopping off the hands of thieves. I'm glad that most Muslims don't follow that Islamic rule about chopping off the hands of thieves. Islam leads to Muslims believing all sorts of nonsense including the notion that violence is justified against alleged enemies of Islam. That can even include fellow Muslims. It's not very conducive to people doing good things. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Tue, 22 May 2018 15:10:56 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40054,from=rss#post40054https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40054,from=rss#post40054quote:Yobbo wrote: The same could have been said about Christianity as practiced in the 15th century. Face it, religion is simply a system of brakes on human development. And hundreds of years before, money, power and leading a life that was supposed to choose poverty and celibacy wasn't working out so well.nondisclosed_email@example.com (katie5445)Tue, 22 May 2018 00:49:29 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40048,from=rss#post40048https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40048,from=rss#post40048I'm not saying that there are no Christians who do good. Some definitely do do good. But on the other hand there are Christians who do evil things. I might add that there are atheists who fall into either camp. And Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus......nondisclosed_email@example.com (Yobbo)Mon, 21 May 2018 20:31:38 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40038,from=rss#post40038https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40038,from=rss#post40038Original Christianity, though, was based on the idea that no person was better or more entitled than another person. that's the idea that unlies democracy. When you focus on what has been done in the name of Christianity as opposed to its original purpose, you distort Christianity. It was a movement for liberation which some have turned into a means of enslavement. But there are still people in the world you use it as a means of liberation. For instance, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Bishop Tutu.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Bellelettres)Mon, 21 May 2018 12:46:42 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40020,from=rss#post40020https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40020,from=rss#post40020The same could have been said about Christianity as practiced in the 15th century. Face it, religion is simply a system of brakes on human development.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Yobbo)Sun, 20 May 2018 21:15:22 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40018,from=rss#post40018https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40018,from=rss#post40018quote:Yobbo wrote: Philer, Christianity as it exists today is, on the whole, a very toned down version of what it was, say, 600 years ago. Most Christians accept what science has proved, and have abandoned things that were once integral to their beliefs. Some still maintain the fantasies of how the world was "created" by their god but others have jettisoned that. A lot of the stuff Christians have removed from their beliefs were horrid - stuff that is still in Islamic belief. So Islam hasn't matured as much - it is 1200 years younger. Islam can't really mature, Yob, because childish nonsense can never mature. Of course it can become more liberal and less strict about following the rigid rules of Islam. In that regard it has the advantage of the modern age and its liberating influence. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Sun, 20 May 2018 20:54:54 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40017,from=rss#post40017https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40017,from=rss#post40017quote:katie5445 wrote: I went to a Baptist church once, scared the crap out of me. All that screaming and pulpit pounding, when I'm used to sitting quiet in a pew. The last straw, it was during the Kennedy/Nixon run, the pastor was screaming and spitting with an anti Catholic lecture that ended with anyone voting for JFK will go to hell, no thanks Baptists. You went to a very different kind of Baptist church than the one I attended, katie. Nothing anti-Catholic or anti any other religion. And no screaming or pulpit pounding either. I also don't recall any paster claiming that anyone would go to hell for voting for any politician. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Sun, 20 May 2018 20:50:16 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40012,from=rss#post40012https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40012,from=rss#post40012Philer, Christianity as it exists today is, on the whole, a very toned down version of what it was, say, 600 years ago. Most Christians accept what science has proved, and have abandoned things that were once integral to their beliefs. Some still maintain the fantasies of how the world was "created" by their god but others have jettisoned that. A lot of the stuff Christians have removed from their beliefs were horrid - stuff that is still in Islamic belief. So Islam hasn't matured as much - it is 1200 years younger.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Yobbo)Sun, 20 May 2018 19:15:38 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40011,from=rss#post40011https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40011,from=rss#post40011I went to a Baptist church once, scared the crap out of me. All that screaming and pulpit pounding, when I'm used to sitting quiet in a pew. The last straw, it was during the Kennedy/Nixon run, the pastor was screaming and spitting with an anti Catholic lecture that ended with anyone voting for JFK will go to hell, no thanks Baptists.nondisclosed_email@example.com (katie5445)Sun, 20 May 2018 19:02:17 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40008,from=rss#post40008https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40008,from=rss#post40008quote:Bellelettres wrote: I think criticizing another person's religion to their face is like telling them they're raising their children wrong. You're interfering in something that is none of your business. It's an affront. If they start trying to convert you, they're interfering in something that's none of their business, but until they do that, their religion has nothing to do with you. I tried converting people to my Baptist faith. It didn't work out too well. They seemed to highly resent it and I quickly gave up on the idea of trying to convert people. But I disagree that criticizing a person's religion is a significant affront any more than criticizing their politics is. Religious beliefs are not in some special category which makes them off limits to criticism. For one thing, they are too important. They affect the way people think and behave. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Sun, 20 May 2018 16:44:46 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40007,from=rss#post40007https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p40007,from=rss#post40007quote:Yobbo wrote: Philer, Religions are essentially based on the fantasies of primitives trying to explain what they can't understand. Most have good points but since religions are all man made they contain prejudices of the initial fantasist/s. You appear to be underestimating the destructive nature of religions like Islam, Yob. Islam isn't just about having primitive fantasies about the nature of the world. It's also often about believing that you have a justification for doing things which are harmful to yourself and fellow humans. Religions like Islam have the power to convince humans that irrational and destructive behaviour is justified because it is what God wants. That makes them far more than just a set of primitive fantasies. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Sun, 20 May 2018 16:39:33 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39993,from=rss#post39993https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39993,from=rss#post39993I think criticizing another person's religion to their face is like telling them they're raising their children wrong. You're interfering in something that is none of your business. It's an affront. If they start trying to convert you, they're interfering in something that's none of their business, but until they do that, their religion has nothing to do with you.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Bellelettres)Sun, 20 May 2018 11:54:12 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39991,from=rss#post39991https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39991,from=rss#post39991We all have fantasies that isn't what is important, what is how they play out.nondisclosed_email@example.com (katie5445)Sun, 20 May 2018 04:12:22 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39985,from=rss#post39985https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39985,from=rss#post39985Philer, Religions are essentially based on the fantasies of primitives trying to explain what they can't understand. Most have good points but since religions are all man made they contain prejudices of the initial fantasist/s.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Yobbo)Sat, 19 May 2018 20:14:33 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39983,from=rss#post39983https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39983,from=rss#post39983quote:katie5445 wrote: quote:Yobbo wrote: Just an aside, Jews living in Europe were frequently treated very harshly by Christians while those in the Middle East were on the whole treated well. I might add that Shiites were better than Sunnis. Not that you could tell from the actions of Israel, they want obliterate Iran and get the Saudis to help. I wasn't sure Europe knew any Jews lived there! I don't understand your remark, Katie.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Yobbo)Sat, 19 May 2018 20:10:40 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39981,from=rss#post39981https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39981,from=rss#post39981quote:katie5445 wrote: There is challenging, debating, informing, educating, if you are sincere in changing someones mind, it is not by telling them they are full of "bullshit," they are "irrational" "dangerous" "nonsensical" you are not there trying to "straighten" them out, you are there to attack, so let's call it what it is. I don't tell people that they are full of bull. The only reason why I ever use terms like irrational, nonsensical or dangerous is because those terms sometimes apply to religions. But I don't leave it at that. I explain why I believe those terms are appropriate. In the case of religions like Islam and Mormonism one reason why all three terms apply is because those religions raise the gullibility level of people to the point where they can believe that harming other innocent people is justified. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Sat, 19 May 2018 19:27:19 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39978,from=rss#post39978https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39978,from=rss#post39978quote:Bellelettres wrote: Message boards are different from confronting someone in person. On a message board, we're discussing ideas impersonally. And in fact, even on a message board it is arrogant and rude to say, "You belief is bullshit." But in person, it's worse, because the person can't ignore you without making a scene. Even laughing and walking away is making a scene. Throwing you out of her house is considered overreacting. And if she's in your family or your social circle, it may seem better just to tolerate you. In any case, I can't imagine that anyone would want to be around you in person, if that means you would feel free to tell them that their religion is bullshit, and believe it's your duty to do so or that you're doing them a favor by doing so. I don't simply tell people that their religion is bullshit, Belle. That would be counterproductive. It just irritates or infuriates people to be told what they believe is bullshit and it does nothing to show them that it is. What I try to do is explain to them why I consider their religion flawed and problematic. Sometimes the origin stories of religions like Islam and Mormonism make no sense. I see no reason to pretend otherwise and to refrain from pointing that out. And sometimes it is what their religions tell them to do that is highly questionable. Whatever flaws a religion has there is no good reason to pretend those flaws don't exist. Not even to spare someone's feelings. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Sat, 19 May 2018 19:18:51 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39976,from=rss#post39976https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39976,from=rss#post39976quote:Yobbo wrote: Just an aside, Jews living in Europe were frequently treated very harshly by Christians while those in the Middle East were on the whole treated well. I might add that Shiites were better than Sunnis. Not that you could tell from the actions of Israel, they want obliterate Iran and get the Saudis to help. I wasn't sure Europe knew any Jews lived there!nondisclosed_email@example.com (katie5445)Sat, 19 May 2018 19:04:17 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39971,from=rss#post39971https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39971,from=rss#post39971There is challenging, debating, informing, educating, if you are sincere in changing someones mind, it is not by telling them they are full of "bullshit," they are "irrational" "dangerous" "nonsensical" you are not there trying to "straighten" them out, you are there to attack, so let's call it what it is.nondisclosed_email@example.com (katie5445)Sat, 19 May 2018 17:50:59 +0000 The All Righteous Philerhttps://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39970,from=rss#post39970https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39970,from=rss#post39970nondisclosed_email@example.com (crogin)Sat, 19 May 2018 17:28:26 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39968,from=rss#post39968https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39968,from=rss#post39968Message boards are different from confronting someone in person. On a message board, we're discussing ideas impersonally. And in fact, even on a message board it is arrogant and rude to say, "You belief is bullshit." But in person, it's worse, because the person can't ignore you without making a scene. Even laughing and walking away is making a scene. Throwing you out of her house is considered overreacting. And if she's in your family or your social circle, it may seem better just to tolerate you. In any case, I can't imagine that anyone would want to be around you in person, if that means you would feel free to tell them that their religion is bullshit, and believe it's your duty to do so or that you're doing them a favor by doing so.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Bellelettres)Sat, 19 May 2018 17:09:28 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39967,from=rss#post39967https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39967,from=rss#post39967Synonyms for arrogance - all of which seem to apply to Philer - damned out of his own mouth! quote: haughtiness · conceit · hubris · self-importance · egotism · sense of superiority · pomposity · high-handedness · swagger · boasting · bumptiousness · bluster · condescension · disdain · contempt · imperiousness · pride · vanity · immodesty · loftiness · lordliness · snobbishness · snobbery · superciliousness · smugness · pretension · pretentiousness · affectation · scorn · mocking · sneering · scoffing · presumption · insolence · uppitiness · big-headednessnondisclosed_email@example.com (crogin)Sat, 19 May 2018 17:06:14 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39965,from=rss#post39965https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39965,from=rss#post39965quote:katie5445 wrote: Pointing out someones "bullshit" isn't going to straighten anyone out, it's an arrogant and rude. Isn't that what we do on message boards or at least, try to do, katie? The only problem seems to be that some people don't like it when the bullshit in question is religious bullshit. Critiquing someone's religious beliefs is apparently supposed to be considered some kind of a personal insult or simply wrong. My view is that whatever someone believes is open to criticism if it doesn't make sense. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Sat, 19 May 2018 16:56:56 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39963,from=rss#post39963https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39963,from=rss#post39963Pointing out someones "bullshit" isn't going to straighten anyone out, it's an arrogant and rude.nondisclosed_email@example.com (katie5445)Sat, 19 May 2018 16:24:49 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39956,from=rss#post39956https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39956,from=rss#post39956quote:Bellelettres wrote: What is your success rate, Philer? How many people have said to you, "You're right. I've been wrong. Thank you for straghtening me out." Pretty low. I can't recall anyone ever thanking me for straightening them out. Of course I've lost track of some of them. They may have changed their views on their religion since I talked to them about it. Regardless, a low success rate shouldn't keep us from pointing out bullshit when we see it. We do it all the time in political discussions with little apparent success. I see no reason not to do the same thing in the case of bad religions and religious beliefs. Some bad political beliefs may only exist due to religious beliefs that support those bad political viewpoints. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Fri, 18 May 2018 20:49:59 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39955,from=rss#post39955https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39955,from=rss#post39955What is your success rate, Philer? How many people have said to you, "You're right. I've been wrong. Thank you for straghtening me out."nondisclosed_email@example.com (Bellelettres)Fri, 18 May 2018 19:46:39 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39951,from=rss#post39951https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39951,from=rss#post39951Just an aside, Jews living in Europe were frequently treated very harshly by Christians while those in the Middle East were on the whole treated well. I might add that Shiites were better than Sunnis. Not that you could tell from the actions of Israel, they want obliterate Iran and get the Saudis to help.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Yobbo)Fri, 18 May 2018 18:41:52 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39945,from=rss#post39945https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39945,from=rss#post39945quote:katie5445 wrote: "When they don't make sense they should be abandoned," and who is the decision maker of that statement? It has to be the person who can abandon irrational beliefs. The one who believes them. You can't make people give up their beliefs but you can at least point out to them when they don't make sense. Acting as if they may make sense or are potentially beneficial when they are dangerously nonsensical is not a good idea. Some people believe that nonsensical religious beliefs are at worst harmless but that isn't generally true. They tend to generate problems and have the potential to generate big problems. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Fri, 18 May 2018 11:56:43 +0000 Re: What are you doing for Ramadan?https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39944,from=rss#post39944https://bthepoliticalgrilltwo.runboard.com/p39944,from=rss#post39944quote:I take it you've never studied Medieval Christian history, Philer. Christianity has a long history of violence and intolerance.-crogin I'm aware of the nefarious history of the Catholic Church. That's one reason why I'm no fan of Catholicism. quote:We know no one is perfect, but we expect it anyway. Except in ourselves. We often excuse our own shortcomings because we claim God’s grace. But then we turn around and demand others be perfect—a standard we ourselves don’t meet. This is precisely what Jesus was warning against. That admonition from Jesus doesn't apply to what I'm doing. I'm not expecting Muslims to be perfect. Far from it as long as they follow their religion. It's not even them that I'm judging. It's their religion. Islam(and Mormonism) is what I've been talking about. It is an irrational, destructive religion that misleads well-meaning people and gets them into trouble. Acting as if Islam is harmless is not something anyone should do while using that warning from Jesus as an excuse. There is no excuse for pretending that Islam is a harmless, beneficial religion. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Philer)Fri, 18 May 2018 11:46:09 +0000