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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Philer wrote:

I simply don't know how abusive the British were to Americans because I don't know how much of the alleged abuse was propaganda. Obviously enough people believed the war was justified but that doesn't mean that it was.

As George Bernard Shaw said, "History lies."



That is what often is assumed. It's a long time ago no documentation. That would be wrong, the English, Germans, French and so on that were established for centuries had millions of reams of documentation, you can find them in libraries, museums, public record buildings, in their own hand, signed and sealed, I'm seen them as early as 1200 in the UK. They basically had a cabinet and records were meticulous if not destroyed or burnt and that was the same during colonial times. Harvard University was founded in 1636 and Oxford in 1096. Those type of institutions also have wonderful stacks of history. What is lacking is history for newly established colonies, like 1620 Jamestown landing and much of their few years is guessing but if you go to 1624(my first family member landing) the info is far more detailed, I was able to trace my family backwards to 1555 to me.
6/21/2020, 2:25 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

If you "simply don't know" why quote Shaw? Just say, I don't know....



The reality that "History lies" is why I don't know. But even if the British were abusive it doesn't automatically follow that The Revolutionary War was justified. That war resulted in an awful lot of suffering also.

And what about the Americans who were loyal to the British? How were they treated by the new American government?
6/21/2020, 9:41 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

To be fair, the polls during the revolutionary times actually were only about a third in favor of rebellion., a third against it, and a third who did not care.

But it just can never work to not have local jurisdiction and self rule. The idea that Parliament would pass laws and taxes without any colonial representation is just inherently abhorrent.



So a bloody Revolutionary War was justified with only a third of the citizenry in favor of rebelling against the British? Doesn't seem very likely. As I have mentioned other British colonies including the big one to our north have fared well without rebelling against their original government. They evolved into independent countries rather than fighting for independence with a bloody war.
6/21/2020, 9:45 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Geezess wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Geezess wrote:

"How much of that terrible mistreatment by the British was propaganda?"

Are you suggesting the videos of State sponsored police violence, that we have seen with our own eyes are propaganda, fake news,
and so not real ?
Why ?



No. What I was suggesting was that some of the claims of British terror and harassment of Americans leading up to the Revolutionary War that katie mentioned may have been propaganda aimed at getting more Americans ready and willing to fight that war.

We don't have any video or film from those days. Too bad. It would be interesting to view.



Tory, batty boy ?



Difficult to know whether I would have been loyal to the British government back in those days but I doubt that I would have favored a bloody revolution costing a lot of American lives rather than negotiation with the British government to get better conditions for Americans. What I do know is that the British ended slavery in their colonies long before we ended slavery with another bloody and catastrophic war. A war which is still generating bad political consequences.
6/21/2020, 9:50 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

quote:

Geezess wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Geezess wrote:

"How much of that terrible mistreatment by the British was propaganda?"

Are you suggesting the videos of State sponsored police violence, that we have seen with our own eyes are propaganda, fake news,
and so not real ?
Why ?



No. What I was suggesting was that some of the claims of British terror and harassment of Americans leading up to the Revolutionary War that katie mentioned may have been propaganda aimed at getting more Americans ready and willing to fight that war.

We don't have any video or film from those days. Too bad. It would be interesting to view.



Tory, batty boy ?



Any government using military troops on civilians is inherently abhorrent and disqualified to govern.
We should have dissolved government after the Kent St. massacre.



I just wanted to get Nixon out of office but the majority of the American public wouldn't even go along with that. They were apparently scared of the "radical" candidate George McGovern.
6/21/2020, 9:52 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

To be fair, the polls during the revolutionary times actually were only about a third in favor of rebellion., a third against it, and a third who did not care.

But it just can never work to not have local jurisdiction and self rule. The idea that Parliament would pass laws and taxes without any colonial representation is just inherently abhorrent.



So a bloody Revolutionary War was justified with only a third of the citizenry in favor of rebelling against the British? Doesn't seem very likely. As I have mentioned other British colonies including the big one to our north have fared well without rebelling against their original government. They evolved into independent countries rather than fighting for independence with a bloody war.



Yes the revolution was justified.
Rights are not a popularity contest.
If the rights of any one single people can be abused by the government, then the whole government is totally illegitimate.
But that is not referring to simple mistakes or desires. I mean things like slavery, taxation without representation, the war in Vietnam, lies about Iraq WMD, the war on drugs, etc.
6/22/2020, 1:18 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Yes the revolution was justified.
Rights are not a popularity contest.
If the rights of any one single people can be abused by the government, then the whole government is totally illegitimate.
But that is not referring to simple mistakes or desires. I mean things like slavery, taxation without representation, the war in Vietnam, lies about Iraq WMD, the war on drugs, etc.-Rigby



My view is a more utilitarian one than your idealistic viewpoint. If what is gained is not significantly better than what preceded it and in some ways worse, especially down the line, then the war was not justified. Of course people didn't have the ability to predict the future but they did know that a war likely would be very costly. They also did not know that it would succeed. The Revolutionary War could have been a failure leaving the British in charge with even more restrictions being imposed on the colonists.

It turned out to be a big gamble that paid off in a short term victory but long term consequences that were catastrophic.
6/22/2020, 8:25 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Yes the revolution was justified.
Rights are not a popularity contest.
If the rights of any one single people can be abused by the government, then the whole government is totally illegitimate.
But that is not referring to simple mistakes or desires. I mean things like slavery, taxation without representation, the war in Vietnam, lies about Iraq WMD, the war on drugs, etc.-Rigby



My view is a more utilitarian one than your idealistic viewpoint. If what is gained is not significantly better than what preceded it and in some ways worse, especially down the line, then the war was not justified. Of course people didn't have the ability to predict the future but they did know that a war likely would be very costly. They also did not know that it would succeed. The Revolutionary War could have been a failure leaving the British in charge with even more restrictions being imposed on the colonists.

It turned out to be a big gamble that paid off in a short term victory but long term consequences that were catastrophic.



Whether or not the war was costly and undesirable, it was not avoidable.
The British crown should not have existed.
It is wrong in its existence.
It can pretend to be valuable, but that is just a transient disguise.
It is wrong by definition.
6/22/2020, 11:03 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
katie5445 Profile
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


Well it was valuable to England or the Spanish, the French. Look what they did to India and Africa
6/23/2020, 12:56 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
katie5445 Profile
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Yes the revolution was justified.
Rights are not a popularity contest.
If the rights of any one single people can be abused by the government, then the whole government is totally illegitimate.
But that is not referring to simple mistakes or desires. I mean things like slavery, taxation without representation, the war in Vietnam, lies about Iraq WMD, the war on drugs, etc.-Rigby



My view is a more utilitarian one than your idealistic viewpoint. If what is gained is not significantly better than what preceded it and in some ways worse, especially down the line, then the war was not justified. Of course people didn't have the ability to predict the future but they did know that a war likely would be very costly. They also did not know that it would succeed. The Revolutionary War could have been a failure leaving the British in charge with even more restrictions being imposed on the colonists.

It turned out to be a big gamble that paid off in a short term victory but long term consequences that were catastrophic.



So because something can be a failure, it is not worth the effort. Ouch, my motto is I'd rather try and fail than not try at all.
6/23/2020, 12:59 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 


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