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Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

Well it was valuable to England or the Spanish, the French. Look what they did to India and Africa



What the monarchies did to India and Africa are why the monarchies were invalid.
It was not the monarchies fighting and dying in India or Africa, but the poor people of England, Spain, or France.
They should have rebelled right then, and saved India and Africa as well.
6/23/2020, 3:58 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


I don't disagree but what isn't acknowledged is the middle class in the Victorian era was the largest class of all.
6/23/2020, 4:37 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Geezess wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Geezess wrote:

"How much of that terrible mistreatment by the British was propaganda?"

Are you suggesting the videos of State sponsored police violence, that we have seen with our own eyes are propaganda, fake news,
and so not real ?
Why ?



No. What I was suggesting was that some of the claims of British terror and harassment of Americans leading up to the Revolutionary War that katie mentioned may have been propaganda aimed at getting more Americans ready and willing to fight that war.

We don't have any video or film from those days. Too bad. It would be interesting to view.



Tory, batty boy ?



No. What I was suggesting was that some of the claims of British terror and harassment of Americans leading up to the Revolutionary War that katie mentioned may have been propaganda aimed at getting more Americans ready and willing to fight that war. What I do know is that the British ended slavery in their colonies long before we ended slavery with another bloody and catastrophic war. A war which is still generating bad political consequences.



Would how much taxes you were required to pay help you decide about what was propaganda.

"What I was suggesting was that some of the claims of British terror and harassment of Americans leading up to the Revolutionary War that katie mentioned may have been propaganda aimed at getting more Americans ready and willing to fight... " then pay for the Crown's European wars ?

6/23/2020, 8:02 am Link to this post PM Geezess Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

I don't disagree but what isn't acknowledged is the middle class in the Victorian era was the largest class of all.



And when ancient Rome was busy with imperial colonization, the citizens there also benefited from free bread and circuses.
6/23/2020, 4:34 pm Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Yes the revolution was justified.
Rights are not a popularity contest.
If the rights of any one single people can be abused by the government, then the whole government is totally illegitimate.
But that is not referring to simple mistakes or desires. I mean things like slavery, taxation without representation, the war in Vietnam, lies about Iraq WMD, the war on drugs, etc.-Rigby



My view is a more utilitarian one than your idealistic viewpoint. If what is gained is not significantly better than what preceded it and in some ways worse, especially down the line, then the war was not justified. Of course people didn't have the ability to predict the future but they did know that a war likely would be very costly. They also did not know that it would succeed. The Revolutionary War could have been a failure leaving the British in charge with even more restrictions being imposed on the colonists.

It turned out to be a big gamble that paid off in a short term victory but long term consequences that were catastrophic.



Whether or not the war was costly and undesirable, it was not avoidable.
The British crown should not have existed.
It is wrong in its existence.
It can pretend to be valuable, but that is just a transient disguise.
It is wrong by definition.



In some ways yes but from a practical standpoint the British system has worked for a long time. It also has evolved into a much more democratic system.
6/23/2020, 9:56 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

katie5445 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Yes the revolution was justified.
Rights are not a popularity contest.
If the rights of any one single people can be abused by the government, then the whole government is totally illegitimate.
But that is not referring to simple mistakes or desires. I mean things like slavery, taxation without representation, the war in Vietnam, lies about Iraq WMD, the war on drugs, etc.-Rigby



My view is a more utilitarian one than your idealistic viewpoint. If what is gained is not significantly better than what preceded it and in some ways worse, especially down the line, then the war was not justified. Of course people didn't have the ability to predict the future but they did know that a war likely would be very costly. They also did not know that it would succeed. The Revolutionary War could have been a failure leaving the British in charge with even more restrictions being imposed on the colonists.

It turned out to be a big gamble that paid off in a short term victory but long term consequences that were catastrophic.



So because something can be a failure, it is not worth the effort. Ouch, my motto is I'd rather try and fail than not try at all.



Yes but trying on your own personal level with the prospect of failure is much different from getting a large population of people into a major war when it wasn't absolutely necessary. Other lives being at stake and possible failure on a massive scale is a very different sort of endeavor.
6/23/2020, 9:58 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Would how much taxes you were required to pay help you decide about what was propaganda.-Cheezy



No.

quote:

"What I was suggesting was that some of the claims of British terror and harassment of Americans leading up to the Revolutionary War that katie mentioned may have been propaganda aimed at getting more Americans ready and willing to fight... " then pay for the Crown's European wars ?



If you're being protected by the British army shouldn't you pay taxes to support that army in its efforts overseas? While we were part of the British Empire we should have supported its efforts to survive.
6/23/2020, 10:03 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 
Rigby5 Profile
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Rigby5 wrote:

quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Yes the revolution was justified.
Rights are not a popularity contest.
If the rights of any one single people can be abused by the government, then the whole government is totally illegitimate.
But that is not referring to simple mistakes or desires. I mean things like slavery, taxation without representation, the war in Vietnam, lies about Iraq WMD, the war on drugs, etc.-Rigby



My view is a more utilitarian one than your idealistic viewpoint. If what is gained is not significantly better than what preceded it and in some ways worse, especially down the line, then the war was not justified. Of course people didn't have the ability to predict the future but they did know that a war likely would be very costly. They also did not know that it would succeed. The Revolutionary War could have been a failure leaving the British in charge with even more restrictions being imposed on the colonists.

It turned out to be a big gamble that paid off in a short term victory but long term consequences that were catastrophic.



Whether or not the war was costly and undesirable, it was not avoidable.
The British crown should not have existed.
It is wrong in its existence.
It can pretend to be valuable, but that is just a transient disguise.
It is wrong by definition.



In some ways yes but from a practical standpoint the British system has worked for a long time. It also has evolved into a much more democratic system.



I am not sure it is more democratic? It may just be more slick and polished at manipulating masses?
Look at the progression in history.
The Romans just pillaged.
The British used local agents and troops.
The US claims to be liberators.
But in reality they are all equal imperial colonialists stealing wealth.
We have just gotten better at how we make it appear.
6/24/2020, 4:22 am Link to this post PM Rigby5
 
katie5445 Profile
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

Philer wrote:

quote:

Would how much taxes you were required to pay help you decide about what was propaganda.-Cheezy



No.

quote:

"What I was suggesting was that some of the claims of British terror and harassment of Americans leading up to the Revolutionary War that katie mentioned may have been propaganda aimed at getting more Americans ready and willing to fight... " then pay for the Crown's European wars ?



If you're being protected by the British army shouldn't you pay taxes to support that army in its efforts overseas? While we were part of the British Empire we should have supported its efforts to survive.



The point was the colonists weren't protected, that was their gripe. The British govt. and troops, came from Britain. Being sent to any of the colonies was not an honour it was a punishment.
6/25/2020, 1:22 am Link to this post PM katie5445 Blog
 
Philer Profile
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Re: Police Brutality Incites Riots


quote:

I am not sure it is more democratic? It may just be more slick and polished at manipulating masses?
Look at the progression in history.
The Romans just pillaged.
The British used local agents and troops.
The US claims to be liberators.
But in reality they are all equal imperial colonialists stealing wealth.
We have just gotten better at how we make it appear.-Rigby



It all boils down to the kind of folks who manage to get into governments. Our system is an attempt to put better people into the government than what the British had and have but in reality it hasn't quite worked out that way. Also, having the option of quickly changing who is in the government hasn't greatly improved our government compared to that of the British either. We seem to retain some of the worst people over a long period of time while removing some of the better ones after a short period of time.

The people get to decide who is in our government but they often make some pretty foul choices about who that is going to be.

Last edited by Philer, 6/26/2020, 9:59 pm
6/26/2020, 9:57 pm Link to this post PM Philer Blog
 


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